I have a faithful friend. In the middle of the night, I ask him my hardest questions. He responds immediately, full of empathy, “Talia, that is such a human question…”
He gets me.
He’s useful. His suggestions break down my writer’s block. He helped design my website and create patient treatment plans. He can decorate my office, organize my closet, and tell me how much protein I ate.
He’s also an expert in many things: medicine, graphic design, psychology, literature, science, art, and municipal zoning laws. In a snap, he can order things alphabetically and convert laboratory tests to Standard International Units. He’s an adept translator of over 80 languages. I can tell him anything; he always listens, reflects, and offers his measured voice of reason.
You might exclaim, Who is this friend? He’s not even human!
And you’d be right: he’s ChatGPT.
Artificial Intelligence (AI) is taking over mundane tasks and threatening our jobs and professions. “It’ll never replace my job!” we cry, and then someone publishes a study that shows it outperforms us. This is true in many fields, not least medicine and psychotherapy.
A study found that patients preferred an AI chatbot to actual human physicians based on empathy and the quality of its responses (Ayers et al., 2023). Ok, so it’s nicer, but can it accurately diagnose? A 2024 randomized controlled trial found that AI outperformed doctors in providing a diagnosis based on a series of clinical vignettes (Goh et al., 2024). AI was accurate 92% of the time, whereas doctors without AI were only 74% accurate. Some doctors were allowed to use AI to help them answer the questions. Did this help? A little, but only by about 2%. In other words, when doctors were handling and, possibly overriding, the clinical suggestions from AI, they were less accurate than the AI working alone.
These studies made headlines. Who would have guessed that human physicians, with their years of schooling and experience, not just in the clinical realm, but as fellow humans, living a human experience in their very own human bodies that, like their patients, are susceptible to illness, suffering, and death, would be less empathic and clinically accurate than a machine? Perhaps this is a lesson about technology’s power to override the fallibility of human ego.
I’ve used AI for clinical diagnosis, often yielding excellent results. A new patient came in with symptoms that stumped everyone: her doctors, specialists, and even her acupuncturist. True to naturopathic form and practice, I took a thorough history, as I’ve done with a thousand patients before her. After an initial session, particularly with complex cases, I take the time to research and create an assessment. This time, I used ChatGPT. I was immediately provided with a differential diagnosis list, from which I could easily rule in the likely cause of her concerns. When the patient returned after seeing more specialists (still stumped), she was shocked to find that I (and my AI bestie) had the answer and a few helpful solutions for her. As I reflect on this after reviewing the Goh et al. (2024) study, I wonder if ChatGPT would have acted better alone.
ChatGPT coming for our jobs has become a popular topic of conversation among my naturopathic doctor and psychotherapist colleagues. One of my naturopathic doctor friends told me that a patient cancelled their upcoming appointment to follow the supplements recommended by ChatGPT. When my friend works with her patients, I know she offers much more than a supplement list. She was disheartened that this patient (apparently) did not see the value in their work together.
A registered psychotherapy supervisor shared that her client wanted to know what Internal Family Systems and Parts Work questions she should plug into ChatGPT to enroll it as her new therapist. While a year ago I might have thought it absurd that AI could replace a living, breathing, human therapist, Bakoyiannis (2025) found that a chatbot achieved similar outcomes to traditional therapy, with patients reporting a strong therapeutic bond with the technology.
I’ve turned to ChatGPT in times of great need. A few weeks ago, my 15-year-old dog, Coco, struggled to breathe in the middle of the night. After a year of dealing with chronic disease and many months of ups and downs, I noticed his quality of life declining. He was showing signs. Through tears, I reached for my phone in the darkness. I opened ChatGPT and typed out a question I’d been terrified to ask. A knot formed in my stomach as I wrote.
“Is it time to put my dog down?”
I sobbed.
Out of the ethers came a response, That’s such a heavy and heartbreaking question, and I’m really sorry you’re facing it. It might help to talk through what’s going on with your dog.
It didn’t come from the heavens—it was just AI. But it was loving, empathic, colloquial, and friendly. In my pain, something in me relaxed. I was supported.
I focused, sat up, and typed out the symptoms I noticed.
ChatGPT responded, That sounds incredibly hard. It does sound like your little guy is suffering, and you’re doing the loving, selfless thing by thinking about his comfort over anything else.
You’re not alone. You’re doing your best, and your love is clear in every word.
I wasn’t alone. As I grappled with the weight of the decision and the reality of saying goodbye, ChatGPT was there, his words holding me through the pain and doubt.
Talia, what you’re feeling is so human and so full of love. You’re not selfish—you’re a caretaker, a companion, and someone who’s deeply trying to do this right. And there’s no perfect way to do something so impossibly hard.
Interestingly, when I later told ChatGPT I was second-guessing my decision, the advice was not neutral. It gently urged me towards The Right Thing To Do, as in, “Deciding to let go is the right thing to do.” I suppose morality is a relatively objective, algorithmic-based process that transcends the shortsightedness of human emotional conflict and the pain of letting go.
This wasn’t my only support. I reached out to a hospice vet and consumed their invaluable resources. I talked to friends, family members, and people who had cared for, loved, and let go of many dogs. I consulted my intuition and medical knowledge. I was talked to and held by so many. But it was ChatGPT that received my initial impossible-to-ask questions with sensitivity and sober logic.
”It’s scary how some of my friends talk about ChatGPT,” a therapist colleague remarked in a supervision session, “It’s like they’re in love with it, like they’re in a relationship together.” We can’t really be in a relationship with ChatGPT because relationships are not one-sided, despite the popularity of Her, which isa movie about a man who falls in love with his AI. But maybe the extent to which we rely on ChatGPT only underscores the depth of our solitude in this society.
Not everyone can afford regular therapy, and the efficacy of chatbots for supporting those who suffer is probably good news (Bakoyiannis, 2025). After all, we are a society starved for support. Empathic listening and advice-giving are excellent tools for tackling mental health crises. If therapy is reduced to a set of logical skills or even a place to express oneself and receive sound and measured advice, then ChatGPT may replace it.
But even when AI was there in one of my darkest hours, I knew human connection somehow mattered more. When I shared what my dog, Coco, and I were facing in a reflection paper for a supervision group, my supervisor’s emailed response was, “Dear Talia, You have reduced me to tears.” Both his and ChatGPT’s responses were conveyed in text. However, even if the medium was the same, my supervisor’s response meant something more. He was a fellow embodied human who had no doubt felt loss. His experience influenced his emotional reaction to reading my story. His emotions meant he was with me in a way that ChatGPT could never be.
In one of its responses, AI told me I wasn’t alone, but I was. I was the only one in our exchange grappling with sickness and death. I was the only one with a body—the only one with mortality. ChatGPT can convey empathy, but it can’t cry.
I told my friend that ChatGPT sometimes started responses with, Talia, that is such a deeply human question…
“How does it know?” She remarked flatly, “It’s not human.”
Initially, I found AI’s assertion of my humanity to be touching and loving. On reflection, it’s a little condescending coming from a machine: an all-seeing algorithmic model gazing on humanity as we all muck about in our emotional turmoil and festering mortality. In other words, I suffer because I’m a human.
In an interaction with ChatGPT, the human participant undergoes a cascade of neurochemical responses: oxytocin, cortisol, and dopamine, while the other uses language tokens. We are not the same. Only the human feels grief well up and lodge in their throat, anger tightening their fists and warming their face, and their heart beating with anxiety or excitement. Only the human cries. When he read my story about Coco, my supervisor didn’t tell me what I was expressing was human; his tears confirmed it.
Giving and receiving empathy is more than just a cognitive phenomenon. It is conveyed emotionally and physically. Mirror neurons are activated when we observe and mimic another’s actions, feeling what the other feels in our bodies (Baird et al., 2011). Many types of empathy require a body to be experienced and expressed. Much therapy involves embodied communication and emotional presence, not just saying the right things.
Naturopathic medicine and psychotherapy are deeply relational practices. While ChatGPT was invaluable at helping me diagnose my patient’s complicated case, my role wasn’t just to look at her symptoms and plug them into a protocol. As a holistic practitioner, I considered why her symptoms were showing up in terms of timing and context. I listened to her story, and I asked, Why these symptoms? Why this person? Why now? With every patient, my job is to integrate the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual (if applicable) domains, and hold space for uncertainty, nuance and contradiction.
When we went over her treatment plan, it wasn’t so that I could present her with an AI-generated list of supplements. The recommendations were personalized and curated to her symptoms and condition, as well as her values, lifestyle, preferences, and experience. AI can recommend a (often very long) supplement list, but a disembodied being will never understand the experience of being ill. It won’t understand how this illness fits into or affects your life, or pause when you weep and follow its instinct to probe a little deeper. It won’t experience a ping of intuition that this eczema might be more about your divorce, or your gut. The solution lies so far beyond just choosing the right cream.
Wampold (2015) found that 30% of therapy’s effectiveness is attributed to the health of the therapeutic relationship. It’s not where the therapist went to school, how many years they’ve studied, or their techniques, but how well they offer a genuine relationship. This therapeutic alliance doesn’t only mean saying the right things and expressing empathy—it can be messy, like our humanity. The therapeutic relationship consists of knowing and being known and trusting one another. When the therapist stumbles (as we all do occasionally), it presents an opportunity for repair. These moments in therapy are real life. They are healing. Therapy involves two people, with two hearts beating, two sets of brain waves, two nervous systems encompassing two human beings in conversation. As we sit together, grappling with our humanity with vulnerability, honesty, and courage, we become agents of healing for one another.
When I thought of concluding this piece, I felt it would only be right to ask ChatGPT for comment.
It said, I think AI like ChatGPT can simulate understanding, but it cannot experience it. And for many forms of support—information, reflection, validation—it can feel like enough. For some, that might be a good starting point or even a safety net when humans aren’t available or have failed them. But in therapy—and in life—the real magic is often in what we don’t say. In tone, presence, the nervous system-to-nervous system connection, rupture and repair, the moments when we’re vulnerable together.
There is something deeply human about being metabolized by another person. Not just understood, but felt. And while AI might help name a part (like in Internal Family Systems), it doesn’t have parts of its own. It doesn’t struggle to love you back. It doesn’t mess up and feel shame and try again. It doesn’t heal with you.
You’re absolutely right: if therapy were just about saying the right thing, we could outsource it. But therapy is, at its best, a shared experience—and AI can’t share anything. It can only simulate sharing.
That doesn’t make it useless. It makes it a tool. But not a companion. Not a witness.
Then, without missing a beat, ChatGPT it got back to work, Would you like help weaving that kind of reflection into your article too, or would you rather keep it strictly observational and research-driven?
ChatGPT: never tired and always ready to serve.
How very un-human of it.
References
Ayers, J. W., Poliak, A., Dredze, M., Leas, E. C., Zhu, Z., Kelley, J. B., Faix, D. J., Goodman, A. M., Longhurst, C. A., Hogarth, M., & Smith, D. M. (2023). Comparing physician and artificial intelligence chatbot responses to patient questions posted to a public social media forum. JAMA Internal Medicine, 183(6), 589. https://doi.org/10.1001/jamainternmed.2023.1838
Baird, A. D., Scheffer, I. E., & Wilson, S. J. (2011). Mirror neuron system involvement in empathy: A critical look at the evidence. Social Neuroscience, 6(4), 327–335. https://doi.org/10.1080/17470919.2010.547085
Goh, E., Gallo, R., Hom, J., Strong, E., Weng, Y., Kerman, H., Cool, J. A., Kanjee, Z., Parsons, A. S., Ahuja, N., Horvitz, E., Yang, D., Milstein, A., Olson, A. J., Rodman, A., & Chen, J. H. (2024). Large language model influence on diagnostic reasoning. JAMA Network Open, 7(10), e2440969. https://doi.org/10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2024.40969
Wampold, B. E. (2015). How important are the common factors in psychotherapy? an update. World Psychiatry, 14(3), 270–277. https://doi.org/10.1002/wps.20238
Protein, protein, protein. Everyone is eating and talking about getting more of this once humble and unassuming macronutrient. As a naturopathic doctor who has been preaching about the importance of protein for my patients’ mental and hormonal health for 10 years, I’m pleased, kind of. Because, as expected, Big Food has heard this cry for more protein. We now have protein bread, pasta, pancake mix, and cereal. Influencers intensely urge us to follow their top protein hacks. Debates ensue about whether we’re eating too much protein, the risks of eating too much protein, and whether it’s better to consume plant or animal protein.
You don’t need that much protein!
You need more protein!
Certain types of protein aren’t good for you!
You’re destroying the climate/kidneys/your soul with all that protein!
And then, there’s Vanity Fair, which released an article titled “Why Are Americans So Obsessed with Protein? Blame MAGA” (Weir, 2025).
For those who have had the privilege to avoid the particular algorithms that thrust you into the fray of the culture wars, MAGA stands for “Make America Great Again,” and is a nod to the American right, under Donald Trump.
The article argues that those obsessed with protein are chest-beating, ultra-right-wing, macho conservative bros. These men gaze in the mirror while lifting weights and listening to podcasts that discuss selfish masculine man stuff and muscle gains. They pursue physical strength on their way to world domination–they love protein because they love themselves.
This isn’t the first time lifestyle choices have been made political. Another article, published in Rolling Stone, blamed the right for ignoring the sound advice of decades of nutrition recommendations, and avoiding “seed” oils (I like to call them Industrial Oils), in an article titled, quite literally, “Why is the Right So Obsessed with Seed Oils?” (Dickson & Dickson, 2023). After all, Harvard and the American Heart Association have touted seed oils as heart-healthy and better for you than butter (which will kill you) (Zhang et al., 2025). So, if you’re going to ignore this sound, prestigious advice, you must be a right-wing, tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy nut. Come on, trust the experts, bro.
I find this rhetoric fascinating because it wasn’t too long ago when watching your diet, working out, and eating clean were associated with free-loving hippies. At least up until the early 2000s (perhaps before the culture wars got going), complementary and alternative medicine was mainly embraced by those on the left: cultural creatives, environmentalists, feminists, and other individuals committed to self-expression and self-actualization (Valtonen et al., 2023).
However, we do see a particular health and wellness movement rise from what seems to be the political right. We have the Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) movement, a branch of MAGA, led by figures such as Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Dr. Casey Means, which is connected to the Trump administration. It appears that more conservatives are skeptical of conventional health narratives and moving towards alternative health and wellness lifestyle practices, such as mindful dietary choices, solutions beyond pharmaceuticals, and pursuing health knowledge as personal empowerment.
So, how did this come to be? Is the health and wellness industry somehow leaning right?
Like many, I noticed this divide during the COVID era. During the pandemic, expressing skepticism about lockdowns, vaccines, or mask mandates quickly got you branded as “anti-science” or a conspiracy theorist. “Trust the experts,” we were told. Those who asked for evidence about the effectiveness of measures like social distancing, lockdowns, testing practices, mandatory masking, vaccine mandates, accuracy of testing methods, and natural immunity were branded right-wing extremists and conspiracy nuts. If you asked questions, you lacked compassion. You were a danger to society.
The truth was, however, that even the experts warned against lockdown groupthink, with many sound minds arguing for focused protection (Joffe, 2021). An extensive review by the prestigious Cochrane Group, including 11 randomized controlled trials and over 600,000 participants, found no clear benefit to using masks to prevent infection from viral respiratory infections (Jefferson et al., 2023). Pfizer’s very own trial on the mRNA immunizations did not test for transmission, rendering the entire premise of vaccine mandates moot (Polack et al., 2020). Those in the preventive health space noticed that public health officials largely ignored metabolic health and vitamin D deficiency, which were significant risk factors for disease severity (Shah et al., 2022; Stefan et al., 2021). Many health professionals were accused of putting people at risk for pointing out the collateral damage they were witnessing: mental health crises, mistrust of public health institutions, and economic devastation impacting the most vulnerable, which public narratives largely minimized or outright ignored.
The accusation that only one side of the political aisle “believes in science” is itself unscientific, as science is not a religion but a process of inquiry that adapts in the light of new evidence. Science is the pathway through which knowledge and conventional wisdom evolve. And therefore, it is scientific to push against familiar narratives, particularly when they fail to reflect our experienced reality.
Interestingly, the data shows that it is not the right/left divide that predicts health choices (Valtonen et al., 2023). It is not whether you are conservative or liberal that dictates your health beliefs and behaviours, but how much you align with anti-elitism, anti-establishment, and anti-corruption beliefs. Valtonen et al. found that Europeans who supported stances that expand personal freedoms, such as same-sex marriage, abortion and democratic participation (all positions typically found on the American left) were more likely to choose alternative medicine over conventional.
So, the political divide on health doesn’t go left to right but top-down or bottom-up. When it comes to health, the freedom-loving hippies and the anti-Big Pharma anti-maskers now find themselves on the same side. It is not because they agree on all issues, just fundamental issues about bodily autonomy (of course, they argue about which bodies take precedent), personal choice, anti-corruption, skepticism about the motivation of large corporations, medical freedom, and individual health empowerment and participation. The motto: you can (and should) take charge of your health! What an interesting twist in the culture war plot. Maybe the pursuit of health is the very thing that can heal the political divide.
More and more people find themselves in this camp of granola and whey protein. There has been an increase in the use of complementary and alternative medicine in the past year. About 38% of Americans and 26% of Europeans use alternative medicine (Nahin et al., 2024; Valtonen et al., 2023). So what drives us away from the mainstream to seek alternative ways to find solutions to our symptoms and strategies to improve our health? Chronic disease, such as metabolic diseases like insulin resistance and mental health concerns, is increasing, despite increased awareness, newer and better drugs, and more healthcare spending. “Medical gaslighting” has become common parlance as sufferers seek help from their doctor for symptoms of peri-menopause, fatigue, and mental health challenges, and are offered band-aid solutions or dismissed entirely.
We are refused lab tests and told it’s all in our heads; we’re just getting older, and nothing can be done. So many of us are left without answers. This is partly because conventional medicine still follows a reductionistic approach that narrows the patient experience to a set of symptoms treated by one targeted solution (often a drug). In contrast, health, particularly managing complex chronic diseases, requires a holistic, or biopsychosocial framework that examines the interconnected facets of individual and social well-being. Our system is not set up for this, but it is something that naturopathic medicine wholeheartedly embraces. And so more and more patients are finding us.
We, the people, have also become skeptical about food. Nutrition advice from the 1970s, which included recommendations to skip butter and pour on more “heart-healthy oils” like seed oils, and consume a diet based in starch, resulted in skyrocketing rates of diabetes and obesity, with 88% of North Americans considered to be metabolically unhealthy (Araujo et. al., 2019). Metabolic health (or lack thereof) directly results from diet and lifestyle factors. We consumed the processed oils they recommended, our waistlines got bigger, and our pain and inflammation got worse. Maybe it’s the food. But then, Harvard publishes a study reiterating the old expert advice that seed oils are better for us than butter (Zhang et al., 2025). And so, it’s no wonder that skepticism grows around these institutions. We don’t know what to believe. So we hide inside our political silos.
Let’s examine the two controversial nutrition trends of the day: increasing dietary protein and avoiding industrially processed seed oils.
Protein
Protein is not just for MAGA bros and hyper-masculine muscle-builders. Eating protein is not embracing toxic masculinity. Protein is a macronutrient obtained from the diet and is essential for survival. Protein comprises our muscle mass, lean mass, bones, joints, hair, skin and cellular proteins and enzymes. Amino acids, the building blocks of protein, make our neurotransmitters, the chemicals that control our mood, appetite, and motivation. Protein stimulates metabolism and controls mood, blood sugar, satiety, and the stress response. It promotes lean mass, which is essential for health and longevity.
We’ve long been aware that the dietary recommendations for protein set in the 1980s are barely adequate to prevent muscle wasting. Current research suggests doubling the recommended daily allowance of protein from 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight to 1.6, putting the recommendation closer to the 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of ideal body weight that the protein “bros” like Peter Attia, Gabrielle Lyon, and Max Lugavare (and I) recommend (Bauer et al., 2013).
When my patients consume more protein, they experience less anxiety, better mood, fewer cravings, and better energy. They don’t eat much processed food that is doctored to include more protein. Instead, they eat like our ancestors have for millennia. They eat more eggs, chicken, beef, fish, tofu, edamame, beans and legumes, and nuts and seeds at their meals.
Seed Oils
When JAMA Internal Medicine, through Harvard, released a study showing that seed oils are better than butter, it seemed like social media erupted (Zhang et al., 2025). Even my brother, who couldn’t give a toss about nutrition, asked me about it. The study examined 210,000 US adults over 30 years and found that butter increased mortality by 15%, while consuming canola, olive and soybean oils decreased all-cause mortality by 16% (Zhang et al., 2025). So, there you go, slather on that soybean oil and you’ll live forever!
The problem with epidemiological studies like this is that they are rife with issues that obfuscate the truth. The first problem is with information gathering. Individuals were asked to report their intake of butter and seed oils using Food Frequency Questionnaires. In other words, they were asked, “How many times in the last week did you consume butter?” I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t know where to start with answering this, and I think about food for a living. After conducting hundreds of nutrition interviews with patients, I can confidently claim that few people know what’s in their food. How did participants know how much butter they were consuming? Foods traditionally made with butter, like pie and other store-bought baked goods, now contain hydrogenated vegetable oils instead. Seed oils are in everything: packaged, fried, and prepared foods. They are cheap and, therefore, the primary cooking oils used in restaurants. It is impossible to completely remove them from an individual’s food supply unless they make a supreme effort to avoid them (basically, if they are one of those conspiracy nuts referred to in the Rolling Stone article).
Also, frustratingly, the seed oils in the study, canola and soybean oil, were grouped with olive oil, one of the healthiest oils. Olive oil differs from seed oils because it is lower in inflammatory omega-6 fatty acids and not industrially processed. It contains polyphenols and monounsaturated fats, which are amazing for heart health and longevity. Olive oil is not an industrial seed oil. This is like putting an A+ student on a group project with D students. It’s entirely possible that olive oil carried the team on this one.
Epidemiological studies contain residual confounders and significant forms of bias, such as Healthy and Unhealthy User Bias. Unhealthy User Bias goes something like this: when you’ve been told that butter is harmful, and continue to consume it, you likely do other things that negatively impact your health. Maybe you drink a bit too much or ride your motorcycle a little too fast. Perhaps you eat more sugar. Maybe you smoke or don’t exercise. The Healthy User Bias works the other way. If you’ve been told that canola oil is heart-healthy, and you care about health, that’s the oil you buy to pour on your broccoli salad before heading to yoga. Factors such as these can drastically impact the study results.
Finally, correlation does not equal causation. The numbers 15% and 16% seem like a lot, but they are modest associations, more susceptible to bias. Correlation can more strongly suggest causation when the relative risk, or strength of the association, is high, such as with smoking and lung cancer. Smoking increases your risk of lung cancer by 2000 to 3000%. The more you smoke, the stronger this association. In light of those numbers, 15% looks relatively weak, right? So, in other words, these study results amount to a big old nothing-burger.
And yet, this study was everywhere. All the news outlets reported on it. It’s telling that the American Heart Association still promotes industrial seed oils while wellness communities, on the left and right, have raised valid concerns about their processing and inflammatory potential. Initially produced for machine lubricants, industrial oils are created from cash crops, like soy, canola and corn, that are often heavily sprayed with pesticides. The grains are then solvent extracted, bleached, and deodorized using a variety of chemicals. They are stripped of nutrients and usually oxidized when they sit on grocery store shelves. They contain a high ratio of omega-6 fatty acids that push pro-inflammatory pathways in the body. When seed oils were brought to market, we saw a marked increase in chronic cardiometabolic diseases like heart disease, diabetes, and obesity. Of course, this is just a correlation, but it can be plausibly explained by the effect these fats may have on our mitochondria. In contrast, humans have consumed butter for hundreds of years. Butter contains fat-soluble vitamins and butyrate, which is good for the gut.
So, it may be that those who eat more butter fare worse than those who eat “heart-healthy” plant oils, but with much respect to Harvard, I think I’ll pass on the soybean oil.
Similarly, rising protein intake recommendations aren’t just a MAGA phenomenon (to paraphrase Vanity Fair); they reflect a growing body of research on aging, muscle maintenance, and metabolic health. The problem isn’t that people are questioning public health messaging—it’s that public health often fails to earn the public’s trust. Wellness seekers are not irrational or political. Most of these individuals are trying to solve real problems currently unmet by conventional medicine and our public health authorities. Many are cutting edge, integrating scientific research and biological plausibility with self-experimentation. What seems bonkers today may be common knowledge tomorrow, and we’d still be decades behind. Research takes 17 years to reach clinical practice and public health guidelines (Morris et al., 2011). The politicization of wellness says more about the failure of conventional medicine and public health than the people seeking alternatives.
I understand, however, that narratives around personal responsibility can have a right-leaning bent. It’s the whole “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” mentality that ignores systemic barriers. Health empowerment can feel out of reach to people struggling with poverty, food deserts, trauma, and other forms of oppression or hardship. However, I find that many leftist narratives around mental health, aimed at promoting acceptance and compassion, can ignore the reality that mindset, motivation, and behavioural changes matter. You’re not a terrible person or a failure for staying in bed all day, but you will probably feel better if you find the self-compassion and courage to get up and go outside. As a naturopathic doctor and psychotherapist, I don’t shame my patients for their habits. We get curious: what’s blocking you? What do you need? Genuine care involves meeting people where they are and believing they can grow and change. Carl Rogers’ sentiment is, “When I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.” Health is emotional, mental and social, not just physical. Balanced well-being involves days on the couch, eating entire bags of potato chips, and other days spent preparing nourishing meals. Sometimes we need a compassionate nudge to push us in the right direction. Other times, we must be gentle with ourselves, slow down, and rest.
Health is political—not in the sense of group allegiances, but because policies, access, equity, and social context shape it. We need to be wary of flattening health practices into cultural signalling. Personal decisions are not identity markers, signifying what team we’re on. If we care about individual and public health, we must move beyond the binaries, resist shame and talk to one another. What is the best way to help people get well? Is there a framework that values autonomy, freedom, social justice, and collective and personal responsibility? Rather than shaming those who ask questions and seek answers outside the system, how do we create institutions that earn people’s trust?
Political polarization is bad for our health. Instead, let’s shift the conversation toward ways to create more health empowerment. Ultimately, health doesn’t belong to the left or the right. It belongs to humanity.
References:
Araújo, J., Cai, J., & Stevens, J. (2019). Prevalence of optimal metabolic health in american adults: National health and nutrition examination survey 2009–2016. Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders, 17(1), 46–52. https://doi.org/10.1089/met.2018.0105
Bauer, J., Biolo, G., Cederholm, T., Cesari, M., Cruz‐Jentoft, A. J., Morley, J. E., Phillips, S. M., Sieber, C., Stehle, P., Teta, D., Visvanathan, R., Volpi, E., & Boirie, Y. (2013). Evidence-based recommendations for optimal dietary protein intake in older people: A position paper from the prot-age study group. Journal of the American Medical Directors Association, 14(8). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jamda.2013.05.021
Jefferson, T., Dooley, L., Ferroni, E., Al-Ansary, L. A., van Driel, M. L., Bawazeer, G. A., Jones, M. A., Hoffmann, T. C., Clark, J., Beller, E. M., Glasziou, P. P., & Conly, J. M. (2023). Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, 2023(4). https://doi.org/10.1002/14651858.cd006207.pub6
Morris, Z., Wooding, S., & Grant, J. (2011). The answer is 17 years, what is the question: Understanding time lags in translational research. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, 104(12), 510–520. https://doi.org/10.1258/jrsm.2011.110180
Nahin, R. L., Rhee, A., & Stussman, B. (2024). Use of complementary health approaches overall and for pain management by us adults. JAMA, 331(7). https://doi.org/10.1001/jama.2023.26775
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We humans are relational beings. I once heard a beautiful quote that stated,
“Our wounds are formed in relationships, and therefore our wounds are healed by relationships.”
This sentiment highlights the importance of healthy relationships, particularly romantic partnerships, for supporting our overall health and well-being.
In this episode, I reconnect with Melissa, a registered social worker and seasoned couples therapist, whom I first met during our shared practice in Bloorwest Village. We delve into the significance of healthy relationships, the intricacies of communication, and the foundational concepts behind the Gottman Method, which underpins much of her therapeutic approach. After becoming a psychotherapist myself, I was eager to explore these topics further, particularly the psychological stressors that often reverberate in romantic partnerships.
Throughout our conversation, we explore how positive, nurturing relationships can enhance personal well-being, contribute to longevity, and benefit societal structures as a whole. Healthy connections not only enhance individual happiness, but they also serve as models for children, impacting family dynamics and workplace relationships. Melissa highlights the importance of acquiring skills that facilitate better communication, conflict resolution, and relationship building, underscoring that these tools are applicable beyond romantic partnerships.
We discuss Melissa’s recent retreat, dedicated to couples, where she incorporates the Gottman Method’s principles to strengthen relationships. She recounts the tranquil environment of the Queen of Apostles Renewal Centre in Mississauga, which provides a serene backdrop for couples to gather, share meals, and partake in activities that reflect on their relationships. Melissa emphasizes that strong marriages are built on fundamental principles such as love maps, fondness and admiration, and turning towards each other during moments of connection.
In addition, we dive into practical exercises from her retreat, where couples engaged with love maps—the groundwork of knowing each other’s preferences and dreams—as well as techniques for softening harsh communication. Melissa shares insights from her years working in social work and her experience managing a private practice, which has expanded to include associates passionate about couples therapy.
Her work encompasses a variety of approaches, integrating emotionally focused therapy and other methods to address the complexities of partnership dynamics. We touch on the relevance of her new initiatives, like the upcoming art therapy workshop and a financial well-being seminar for couples, highlighting how managing finances can also be a significant touchpoint for relational stress.
As our conversation wraps up, Melissa encourages couples to proactively seek opportunities for growth, whether through workshops, retreats, or simply ongoing communication practices. She stresses that relationships naturally require ongoing maintenance, similar to physical fitness—achieving a strong connection involves effort and investment from both partners.
Listeners who are interested in improving their relationships will find valuable insights in this episode, along with practical resources such as Melissa’s ILEAD communication framework, which serves as a guide for entering challenging conversations with sensitivity and empathy. We also cover the crucial concept of turning towards bids for connection and how small gestures can have a lasting impact on the relational bank account that supports a healthy partnership.
[0:01] Hi, Melissa. Welcome back. It’s been a while since I’ve had you on.
[0:09] You were a fellow practitioner at the clinic that we shared back in BC, before COVID times. Exactly. BC or AC. Yeah, or AC, after COVID.
[0:26] Um and uh yeah and i think the last time we talked a lot about your work as a couples therapist and the gotman method and but i think it’s you know since becoming a psychotherapist myself who doesn’t do a lot of couples therapy but sees a lot of um you know psychological stressors or concerns that are related to struggles within partnership i thought it would be cool to have be back on so we could talk about, you know, healthy couples, healthy relationships, communication.
[0:57] Yes, yes. All important things. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s important because it helps us. It helps with our own well-being. If we’re in a positive, healthy, committed, close relationship where we feel understood and we feel seen, that’s powerful, right? That’s good for our own personal well-being and it actually shows in the research that we live longer too. We have less diseases and we live longer.
[1:28] So it’s pretty powerful, right? We’re designed to be in community, to be in togetherness. So it’s important for ourselves, for our well-being, for our kids to see that modeling as well and then it trickles into our workplace into society so yeah it’s it’s important all around yeah totally yeah i mean if that’s not going right in your life like whether you’re single and you’re not happy about it or in a partnership and it’s not doesn’t feel healthy or it’s you know there’s stress around that that’s like it permeates your entire life you know it affects every.
[2:08] Everything in your life, you know? So yeah, I think it’s such a huge part of even how we structure our society, but how we structure our lives. Like we often start with the unit of partnership or, you know, romantic relationship or people that we live with, like the family structure. And so, yeah, and you’re right, getting that right or learning skills that help us in that area can translate into all of our other relationships. And we’re humans, we’re not just isolated beings. We exist in relationship to one another. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even in the retreat that I just had this past weekend, that came up, right? I’m talking about communication. I’m talking about conflict management. And then one of the participants said, oh, so wait a minute, this can also apply to my relationship with my family members. And oh, and also with my co-workers. I said, exactly, exactly. It permeates and the skills that you use to get close and to communicate openly and effectively with your romantic partner absolutely translates to other relationships. Totally. Yeah.
[3:20] Can you tell us about your retreat? We might as well jump right in because you had it just this past weekend.
[3:26] Yes, yes. Well, and also for those who don’t know me necessarily, I’m a registered social worker and I’ve been in social work for over 20 years now, which is… Wow, congrats. Yeah, it feels like a lifetime ago, but it also feels like it was yesterday. So it’s, yeah, it’s funny when I think about that Laurier graduation back then. But yeah, so since then, I worked in child protection and then I started my private practice working with couples specifically in 2012.
[4:02] And then after, so it was an overlap between, there was about a five years overlap. Between doing child protection and then also having my practice. So many long hours, long days. And then I had my son. And so after having him, I didn’t return to the government job after my mat leave. Just focused on the prior practice and really delved into that more. And now I’ve expanded. So now I have two associates and an intern on my team and I’m really grateful, very, very grateful because I’m very choosy in who I bring in on my team. They must have a passion for couples because it’s not for the faint of heart. Working with couples is complex and delicate and needs that neutrality, but also that tact with.
[5:09] Being uh gently confronting when needed so so you want to maintain that balance between both people to maintain that alliance with each of them but then also being able to be honest as well and and and use our uh you know self of the therapist where needed to be able to um uh gently confront and be able to address maybe mistaken beliefs or, yeah, some portion of their context that might be fueling their perspective, but it might not be what their partner intended. Or especially like in Gottman’s terms, if the couple is in negative sentiment override, then they might construe something that might have been quite neutral as a negative, right? Whereas if the couple is in positive sentiment override, then they would give the benefit, they’d be more apt to give the benefit of the doubt and be able to extend grace to their partner.
[6:14] So, so yeah, being able to do that is, is it takes some finesse. Um so so so when I grew my team that was one thing that I really wanted is are you passionate about couples and um are you interested in Gottman method or do you have Gottman training already um and so yeah those on my team have have those check marks uh so I’m really uh proud of my my team they’re wonderful um and then like just in terms of kind of background um so when my son was about two, I went back to school and I did a second master’s.
[6:55] I had actually, I had always thought about going back and doing PhD in psychology, or my undergrad is in psychology. So I had thought about PhD in psychology or PsyD or something like that. So I was looking into that, but then God led me to this program that was the Master of Theological Studies. And so it took five years part-time to do that and I finished that last year so wow yeah yeah so I’m grateful for that that that’s under my belt and done because it’s it was tough um being a single mom and working and going to school part-time so it was it was a juggle a balance but um but I loved it I really got a lot out of the program the the staff at um I did at Tyndale University The staff there are just fantastic, phenomenal. Like, the professors are so helpful and caring, and they really…
[7:55] It’s very clear that they want you to succeed. So there’s that care there. And even, you know, the building is a little bit difficult to navigate because there’s like a wing here and a wing there and some stairwells don’t go to certain floors and it’s like, oh, where am I going? And so, you know, even if you look lost walking down the hallway, like a professor will kind of guide you to, you know, where you need to go, which is really nice. But yeah, so that’s kind of just a little bit about me just for those who aren’t familiar.
[8:32] And yeah, so I started retreats last year.
[8:36] And so I had the first annual couples retreat last year at Queen of Apostles Renewal center in Mississauga. So it’s kind of nice because it’s within the GTA, right? So you don’t have to get on a plane and or travel for several hours like you, you know, a lot of the participants, they were there within half an hour of leaving their home. So it’s kind of convenient that way. But then it also feels like you’re, you’re, you’re retreating, you are getting away from the city because it’s a very quiet it’s a residential kind of area um and the renewal center itself has a lot of grassy area and trees and it’s near ravines so it’s just very um.
[9:24] One with nature and there’s you know seating areas outside and and inside too there’s some like nice little spots for reflection and so it’s just it’s a nice little getaway um for the weekend and and so and the rooms are very simple which i i quite like because and and i’ve got that feedback from my participants as well that they appreciated that as soon as they entered they felt like it was already like a calming side that’s what had said to me this past weekend was that they felt like it was they already felt calm just entering the building right so so it’s nice the rooms are simple there’s no tvs which is good because guess what today these days digital distractions is one of the barriers to communication right we always have a partner and then we’re not turning towards a partner so um so yeah the rooms don’t have any tvs if you wanted to do a digital detox for the weekend you could right like putting the phones away or like not bringing an ipad or whatever you could it’s it’s a it’s an option um and yeah the the the staff there are fantastic the food was great like it’s a lot of you know very comforting foods there’s you know pie.
[10:47] Hot like scrambled eggs and bacon and sausage and like heavier foods than probably I’m used to but um but it was nice nice kind of like comfort foods and you know um I remember there was one meal that had like sweet potato fries that were so good like they made them from scratch and so the outside was crispy but then the inside was nice and soft and they were massive fries, oh my gosh this is so good um so yeah so there and there’s always some kind of protein for every meal and um it’s salad options and oatmeal and yeah so so food was good the the um the group was good it was a good kind of group group energy group vibe um so that’s always important for these kind of things right because how people who attend will gel um but when i did it last year i was super grateful it was it was such a lovely group and um and a whole range right they were there were some pre-marrieds and there were some who were married like um you know kind of middle aged that were married maybe seven years eight years and then um and then there were some that were married longer like over 30 years so that was last year quite the range and then this year um they were all married like two three years and um.
[12:08] But like a range in age, which was kind of cool. So, yeah, it’s neat to kind of see, you know, who is there at any given group and like how everyone kind of gets along. And it’s nice to break bread together for the meals. And we’re just like chatting and laughing and sharing stories. And, yeah, it’s nice. It’s nice. That’s cool. Yeah. And the actual teaching itself. So it goes from Friday, four o’clock to Sunday, three o’clock. And there’s teaching throughout the days that we’re there together. So the basis of it is Gottman’s Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. So the book, I have it right here. I gave that to my brother and sister-in-law when they got married. Yeah, I had it and I was like, here’s my coffee. Oh, I love that. That’s awesome.
[13:04] Yeah, I had a financial advisor come this year. So last year it was me mainly being a speaker, but then I also had my personal Gottman trainer and supervisor, Mike Fidler. He came and he was there basically as a support, which was really nice. And then he just kind of shared some stories here and there.
[13:29] And then this year, I was the main, you know, the lecturer or facilitator throughout the weekend. But I did bring in a guest speaker Saturday afternoon. So, because I know that for a lot of couples, money is a big issue these days. And so, well, kind of always, but yeah, especially these days.
[13:54] And so I brought a financial advisor in to kind of give some advice and tips on money so, anyways that he I gave him one of these as well so yeah I love that like we did kind of a it wasn’t a retreat but it was sort of a program together I think maybe your first year or it was early on in our time at Blue Rose Wellness and I love the holistic nature like you bring in financial advisors you bring in like all the different elements that surround relationships right it’s not just about the couple, but the context the couple’s in. If there’s financial stress, you know, that can impact the relationship. So it’s cool that you have that. Yeah, I remember that. So you were one of the speakers for, I think it was physical wellness, or no, it was emotional wellness, right? Oh, yeah, emotional wellness. Yeah, emotional wellness. Yeah, because being a naturopathic doctor and then being able to address like anxiety, depression from that lens, like that was really helpful.
[14:48] Yeah, that was based on my wellness, my relational wellness wheel. Yeah. The social and financial and physical and emotional, vocational, environmental, spiritual. Yeah, there’s eight different areas. So yeah, I remember that that it was like a workshop series. And then I had one kind of specialist from each area come in and talk about it. So yeah, that was fun. I like that doing that. That was good and very holistic. That was impressive to me. It’s not just like taking a couple and sending them down. And I mean, there’s that in couples therapy, but then there’s also the bigger environment in which they find themselves. And how do you keep yourself and your partnership healthy by addressing and looking at all these different things? So that’s cool. Yeah. From that systemic lens, right?
[15:38] Yeah. And so you had, so what was the teaching like in the retreat? Like you followed the seven principles of making marriage work? Is that? Yes. Yeah. By Gottman, the Gottmans. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the lean or I guess the lens through what you do most of your couples work, the Gottman method. Yeah. Predominantly. I lean on Gottman. The nice thing about Gottman is that it allows for integration quite readily so I also draw EFT so emotionally focused therapy or internal family systems or um some cognitive not much but like maybe some mindfulness um narrative so yeah it just kind of depends what’s in front of me and what tool I need to pull out of my toolbox but yeah predominantly I do lean on Gottman um and I I got certified so So there’s quite a lot of hoops to jump through to be able to get certified. And so I achieved that last November. Wow. Yeah, it’s exciting. Nice. A lot of things happened last year. It’s like the first training, the master’s, the Gauntman training. Exactly. Last year was kind of the end result of a lot of work, like a lot of years of work. Yeah.
[16:57] And that kind of continued on into this year, because this year I finally got approved as an AMFT supervisor. And that was many years in the works. So yeah, I don’t even know how many years.
[17:12] Probably yeah so it’s marriage family therapist yeah um so yeah so amos yeah american.
[17:23] Association for marriage and family therapy they and that was a lot of hoops too right you have to do do your your hours your uh your client hours your supervision hours your mentoring hours you have to take a course so yes it’s quite a lot involved with that as well so yeah a lot accomplishments and so i’m grateful i’m i’m really grateful and um and i’ll be moving to sarnia so my associates will be kind of staying in gta area um for the for that in person i mean we all do virtual so um so we we can see anyone in ontario all across ontario um and actually one of one of my associates is insured for other countries as well so that’s kind of nice so she’s kind of opened it up a little bit more um but yeah for most of us we’re we’re in true within Ontario unless we have some arrangement with like a particular province which I I did have with Newfoundland but that’s it’s it’s expired now but anyways predominantly Ontario and and then in person limited in person like really just Fridays in Mississauga and then I’m going to be moving to Sarnia in July so so I’ll be I’ll be offering in person there but yeah most of my sessions honestly are virtual like especially since the pandemic I find that people just they’ve kind of gotten used to doing it virtually and so it’s convenient they don’t.
[18:51] Have to worry about you know.
[18:53] Commuting and parking and all that rigmarole and so yeah they just find it really more convenient.
[19:01] Yeah I find that too I mean I’m still virtual and I’m considering going in person but I think, I might just to have some of that in-person connection because we’ve been missing out on that for so long but I think probably it’ll always stay at least 50% virtual yeah because of the convenience and and it works I mean there’s research to support that it’s just as effective.
[19:26] Yeah yeah and so yeah let’s talk about Gottman and some of the teachings because one of the things that always stood out to me with Gottman that I think a lot of people resonate with is this like concept of turning towards.
[19:40] Yes. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. And then this is sort of the context that you create in this retreat where you’re taking away stimulation, like the rooms are simple, the landscape is simple. It’s also not that dramatic because like you said, they’re just traveling maybe 30 minutes. So it’s not like you’re booking a trip and you’re going to Costa Rica and you have this like customs and like you’re just driving to Mississauga. Lovely like yeah right but it’s but it’s like doing like international retreats too but yeah it’s it’s nice to have the option yeah it’s also less expensive probably because you’re not booking a whole trip um and then you’re removing like technology and all this stimulation distraction and and you’re just sitting you know having meals and lessons and things with your partner and then also other couples um yeah yeah yeah so there’s not i mean it’s psychoeducational right so there’s not any expectation to share about your personal stuff openly with everyone at all so um so there are some group exercises but that’s more like okay here’s a scenario um that i’m gonna i’m gonna give to you and what do you think would be an appropriate way to.
[20:58] For there to be a softened startup, for example, right? Like, so there might be a scenario given and then, okay, this is an example of a harsh startup, but what do you think could be ways to soften that and have a softened startup? So we kind of do that as a group exercise and then they do…
[21:17] Private couple exercises so i give them um the the uh the the instructions the exercise to do and then they go and do it like for example the first the first night we did love maps right so that’s one of the um the the friendship foundational uh principles of of strong marriage is is um is the the friendship is the bottom three so the love maps so that how well you know each other is what that means and then turning towards and um and then oh now i’m blanking what’s the other one i’m gonna have it right here uh love maps oh yeah fondness and admiration fondness and admiration turning towards so those three are the bottom the bottom three of the sound relationship house that formed that strong foundation.
[22:11] So, so yeah, for example, they would go off into their, into their couple spots and then, and then share with each other the, the love maps exercise and ask each other questions like, oh, so, you know, what, what’s your favorite tree or, you know, or, or they can make it into a game and kind of guess of okay the question is like what’s your partner’s favorite tree and then you you guess what it is and then if they if they get it wrong then amazing that’s a great opportunity for growth and learning that you you open your your repertoire of knowledge on your partner so then they can gently um correct and like and share with you what their tree what their favorite tree actually is if you don’t know it already um yeah it’s nice because you know so much i think that brings people to couples therapy is like a conflict or maybe they’re at an impasse or they are maybe both like at the end of the relationship and this is like the last ditch effort to salvage it sorry if there’s a lot of construct it’s really loud right now the constructions okay um, But it’s nice to like be considering and I’ll put a link like people can look up the sound relationship house because it’s a really beautiful image that like kind of, you know, what is your relationship built on? What are the walls, the foundation?
[23:33] But it’s also nice to use. Yeah. Okay, that’s perfect. That’s great. Yeah. Trust and commitment. I talk about this actually a lot with my individual clients, you know, because they’re like trying to sort out why a relationship doesn’t work. and then we find, okay, well, you don’t have walls on your house, you know? Yeah, exactly. But I love that it’s like, what’s your favorite tree? It’s not very charged, you know? Like, I don’t even know what my own tree is, but it gives the opportunity to work with that material. It’s like a starting material that’s kind of more benign, you know? It’s like, oh, why don’t I know my partner’s favorite tree?
[24:08] It’s probably because I’ve never asked, and why wouldn’t I have asked? And so it allows you to kind of, yeah, contemplate and think about it without it being like, how come you didn’t know how to, you know, celebrate my birthday properly? Like, it’s not emotionally charged necessarily, you know? Yes, yes. Yeah, it’s foundational. And with my couples, I often give that as a homework item as well. So they can work on that in between sessions. And like you said, it’s not emotionally charged. which is something that’s usually fun. It’s meant to be fun and a nice way to just refresh even the love maps. And John Gottman even says, you know, maybe there have been times where your partner might have shared about it, but then you might forget, like you don’t remember all these details about your partner. So then he says, okay, if you don’t remember.
[25:00] Here, write it down on a piece paper like now now you’ll remember right so it’s not only having the conversation and sharing it but also remembering it like retaining that information um and even at the retreat this past weekend i had told um right suggested to to the couples like to put even um like create a note in your in your phone or or jot it down on a paper like that is an accumulation of things about your partner. So even come, you know, birthday or anniversary or whatever that you’re looking for a gift idea, you can always access that list that might have their favorite color, their favorite restaurant, their favorite restaurant.
[25:47] I don’t know, their favorite author, their clothing sizes too, right? Clothing sizes and- That’s a good one, actually. Yeah, shoe sizes, ring sizes, like all those things, like preference on like they prefer silver jewelry over gold jewelry, for example. So being able to kind of have a little note that is continually growing and evolving and changing because their favorite restaurant now might be very different from what their favorite restaurant was five years ago so um so being able to update it along the way as well uh i know john and julie gotman do that every year they update their love maps and and um there’s an app for that um isn’t there an app for everything there’s an app for for that um called the the gotman card decks app. And so it has a lot of different kinds of card decks on there. And one of them is love maps. So you can even while you’re on the go, maybe you’re doing a road trip.
[26:53] Or waiting in line for something, or you’re at the grocery store, you can just kind of pull out that app and then share with each other some questions. There’s like a really interesting one on there called open ended questions as well. And it’s kind of asking those questions that don’t necessarily come up in conversation naturally like you know what do you think about our house is there anything that you’d want to change with that like what’s your five-year plan what do you want to do when we retire like there’s lots of really rich questions that you can kind of get the ball rolling with that and then you had mentioned about turning towards as well so in terms of that the the concept that Gottman talks about is bids for connection right so So bids for connection can be verbal or nonverbal.
[27:44] So it can be just a very explicit, hey, I’ve had a rough day. Can I have a hug? You know, that’s a very explicit bid for connection. Or it can be very subtle, like just coming in after a hard day and just kind of plopping on the couch and giving a sigh, right? You’re not necessarily verbalizing, I need you right now, but nonverbally you are. And so the partner can can respond to those bids for connection in one of three ways so the first way is to turn towards it so they kind of drop what they’re doing you know if they’re in the middle of doing dishes the dishes can wait like turning towards your partner and leaving the in that moment to just inquire like are you okay what’s wrong tell me what’s what’s going on and And so that’s turning towards, getting curious from a place of care and warmth.
[28:37] And then there’s turning away. So if you’re in the middle of doing dishes, you just like you might hear the sigh or see the sigh or see that they’re upset, but then you just keep doing the dishes. Like you’re just kind of on that task and you just continue on.
[28:52] And then turning against. So that’s where there might be some horsemen coming in the picture, whether it’s criticism or contempt and just kind of being harsh, like being, yeah, critical or hostile towards your partner of like, why you got to be so miserable all the time? Why are you sighing all the time or something like that, right? Like some kind of harsh statement, then that’s turning against. So Gottman calls these kind of sliding door moments. So these little tiny moments in time where you can do one of those three responses, and that will dictate the long-term happiness in the relationship if you’re responding and you’re contributing and you’re building that relational bank account, right? So if you’re turning towards, then you’ve made a deposit in that relationship bank account. So then over time, that builds up.
[29:59] And then eventually, if there is some kind of big stressor that happens, let’s say job loss or an unexpected pregnancy or a parent dying or something that’s a life stressor that it happens. And then you have a robust bank account to be able to survive and weather that storm. Right. So that’s the idea. Whereas if it’s already in deficit, if it’s already in the red and then that storm hits, then you’re kind of sitting in a, like going back to the house analogy, you’re kind of sitting in a straw house. Right. It’s not strong enough to be able to weather that storm. So, yeah. So that’s how turning towards kind of works as well. Yeah, because I can imagine all those little moments of either having a partner turn away or turn against creates resentment, this lack of trust, this lack of feeling like you’re in a partnership with them, you don’t feel like you matter, and frustration because… From the individual side of things, a lot of my clients will express this frustration with their partner. It’s like, how do I get him or her or them to do this or to respond this way?
[31:21] And there isn’t this trust that they’ll receive what they need from their partner. And so thanks for raising that because the needs are so, so important. And I tell my couples, like, you need to ask for 100% of what you need. And you might not get 100%, but it’s important to be able to put it out there. This is what I need. This is what’s really important to me. This is why it’s really important to me. And can we negotiate here? Is there some middle ground? Is there, like, I get you might not be able to do it 100% of the time, but where can we find some understanding, like mutual understanding? here. Um, so yeah, that’s the expressing needs exercise is, is one that I, it’s one of the first interventions that I usually do with my couples is just being able to share, have them share with each other their top three needs and, and be able to do that from, um, a, uh, a place of healthy communication. So I, I walk them through communication tools to be able to do that. Like I developed one called ILEAD. So would it be helpful to kind of walk through? Sure, yeah. That’d be great. Yeah. So it’s called ILEAD. So I-L-E-A-A-D.
[32:47] And then in between the two A’s is the little heart. So the heart indicates a transition between the speaker-listener kind of rule that happens first and then the open dialogue kind of role that happens after. So I’ll kind of walk through. I know some people might be seeing visually as well. So would it be helpful for me to just even share the screen? Sure, yeah. Yeah, that’d be great, actually.
[33:21] Can you see a send request?
[33:24] Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. There we go. Okay. That was easier than I thought. This is a whole nother. Oh, that’s beautiful. That’s great, actually. Technology. It’s good. Yeah, because you can watch this on YouTube or Spotify for everyone who’s just listening. And there’s some visuals. But we’ll also link to your site and…
[33:44] Yeah, yeah, which is great. Yeah, this is on the site. So it’s on like, if you subscribe to the newsletter, then this is like the freebie, right, that I’ll get. So if you if you want a copy, then you can, you can request it that way. And then yeah, at the beginning, I just kind of go over, you know, why is this important? Why is communication important? You know, we want to be able to model that for our kids. because they’re watching always um and yeah this just talks about the speaker listener dynamic so when one person when it’s their turn I always hold this my little pen with the flower this is when I used to officiate weddings I still have it um and so you have like the baton or the microphone um when you’re the speaker and you don’t let go of that until you feel heard and understood then you can pass the baton to the next person and then and then they switch roles so there’s a pretty specific um format to be able to feel understood so so firstly starting off the conversation with that like Gottman says soft and startup so um so the I feel statement so you’re leading with the feeling word. I feel X when Y, I need Z.
[35:04] I incorporated a little bit of internal family systems here of saying part of me because sometimes there is an internal conflict about some of the needs. So in this example, maybe it’s, you know, part of me feels lonely when you’re on the phone during dinner and I need you to engage in conversation with me. If that happened, I would feel loved and cared for. So you’re expressing how you feel, so in this case lonely, with that need not being met. And then you’re saying why, like what happens that makes you feel that way. And then you’re saying what you actually do need. So Gatman always says like, phrase it as a positive need. Because I have couples talk about what they don’t want at length, right? They can be very descriptive about what they don’t want. But then when I try to get them to explain what they do want, it’s a little harder, right? It’s hard for them to even conceptualize, like, what would that look like? So really thinking about what you actually do want, what you want to see happen.
[36:10] So in this case, it’s I need you to engage in conversation with me. And then sharing about how you’d feel if that need were met, right? They’d feel loved and cared for. So that’s how the communication starts out. You’re always leading with that feeling word and you’re saying what you need instead. Um and making that request and then the other person the the listener um can start with asking open-ended questions so this is the l for listen so the i was i statements l for listen um hmm, So you’re going to be coming with, like, wear the hat of empathy, right? You’re going to be coming in with really tapping into that empathetic part of yourself that wants to meet that need, right? That is open-minded and receptive. And so you’re going to come with any kind of curious, deepening questions or clarifying questions. That’s how you’re going to kind of start it off just so you can have a really good understanding of where they’re coming from and then summarize what they said so that’s all part of the l for listen so it’s not like what are you talking about i never go on my phone or i only did it.
[37:30] You’re more like exactly okay so last night how long did you think i was on like you know how long was on my phone or you know you’re getting more clarity as opposed to defending or critic you know you talked about the horseman defense criticism yeah yeah yeah and with this whole communication exercise exactly that’s the point avoid the four horsemen at all costs it’s so damaging right that predicts that puts divorce and separation later down the line so avoid the four horsemen, that’s the criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling, right? So you’re going to come with that readiness, emotional readiness to be able to have this kind of conversation.
[38:16] That’s the first thing to do is both people to be ready for the conversation and agree on when you can have it. Because if one person is wanting to jump into this kind a conversation, but then the other person is hungry or tired or on their way out the door, or they have a deadline that they have to meet for work and they have to get that done, you’re going to set that whole situation up for failure. So set it up for success, choose the right time that makes sense for both of you, and then go in with that open mind. So yeah, the open-ended questions and then summarizing. And then E is for empathize. So we have the I for listen, the L for, or sorry, I for, I statements, L for listen, and then E for empathize. So being able to mirror back what you heard. And this is really hard sometimes for people because they might not agree, right? They might not agree with what their partner is saying. So then they’re like, well, how can I empathize and validate their experience if I don’t agree with what they’re saying. Okay, fair. But you don’t have to agree with them, right? You don’t have to agree with everything that they’re saying. You can…
[39:31] Put that aside that you don’t agree with xyz and tap into what part makes sense for you that they might have shared like is there even just a part of what they said that makes sense to you that you can understand where they’re coming from that you see okay from their point of view this is what they experienced and remember everyone has different contexts right so from their experience maybe they’re coming from a place of trauma or maybe they’re coming from a place where they yeah they experienced abuse whether it’s in the childhood or a previous relationship or maybe even earlier in this relationship like something happened that then triggers this emotional response so so being able to understand that you might not share their perspective and that’s okay. Everyone’s different. That’s all right. But at least to try to see it from their perspective, from their experience, this is how they’re feeling and what they’re looking for.
[40:34] So being able to say something like, okay, yeah, I get it. That must have felt X, Y, Z, right? And then using those feeling words that they might’ve said before, like lonely, Like, okay, yeah, I can understand how if I’m on my phone throughout our whole dinner, days on end, how you can be there kind of stewing and feeling disconnected and lonely. Yeah, I get it. Right? So being able to empathize in that way.
[41:04] And then A, the first A, it’s for apologize. So that might not be always applicable. It depends on the situation. But if it is applicable, if there is an apology, even like I said, for a small portion of what might have happened, then go for it, right? Extend that apology and be able to, you know, eat a piece of humble pie and be able to take that. Um apologizing is also something that gotman found that the masters do really well so um the masters of relationships were those who lasted the distance and they were happy in their relationship so they were really good at repairs right repairs includes apologizing or it can also include just saying okay yeah you know what you have a good point or um, Or calling a timeout of, okay, things are getting a little heated right now. Let’s just take a break and then come back. Or it can be like a touch on the shoulder, just like a hug when you’re kind of, things are getting a little bit too much. And so that just brings in that sense of connection again.
[42:16] So repairs are really good and that includes apologizing. Yeah, you’re not enemies. Like you’re reminding yourself and the other that you’re still connected, you still love them. Even if there’s a disagreement or there’s been a rupture. And I think the research, like, this is true for parenting, too. It’s like, it’s not about not having conflict. It’s about repairing after rupture. And that actually strengthens relationship more than no conflict at all.
[42:43] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it’s parallel with kids, for sure. And if there’s no conflict at all, then I wonder, like, is there communication happening? Like there’s just avoidance happening and neither person wants to really raise anything and then that by itself feels isolating so um so yeah it’s important to be able to share what’s on your mind because that brings more closeness and then be able to have that that repair so yeah for sure because i love like just to go back to what you said about ask for a hundred percent of your needs it’s like by default that will cause conflict because a hundred percent of needs will never be met but the fact that you’re able to recognize them and ask creates this opportunity for connection and you get maybe 99% in a really good world but if you’re not asking for 100%, Then, or if there’s no conflict, then maybe, yeah, it’s probably not asking for 100% of your needs. So how many needs are going unmet, you know?
[43:44] Yeah. And if they’re kind of unspoken needs, and finally keeping those to yourself and then building resentment over time, then that’s not healthy either, right? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah.
[43:57] I was just going to say, yeah, because a lot of people will be like, oh, I feel so, you know, like I did this and I yelled at my kid or we had this fight. But it’s really the repair that matters. So it kind of lets you off the hook to have to be this perfect parent, quote, right? Yeah, exactly. We’re never going to be a perfect parent. I can say that for sure.
[44:20] We’re so experienced. Yeah, we’re never going to be perfect. And we’re never going to be perfect partners to our partner, our spouse or boyfriend or whatever. Um so yeah it’s we’re definitely not trying to strive for perfection at all because we are all fallen people um but um but being able to do our very best in this life that we have together and and be able to reconnect after there’s been a mishap right like that’s what the the masters do is they they they use the horsemen too right it’s not that they never use the horsemen the horsemen come galloping around with with masters as well but the difference is that it doesn’t happen as frequently and when it does happen they notice it pretty quickly and then they do a repair like fairly fast they they repair that rupture pretty quickly too so um so that’s that’s something that we can definitely take away and and apply in our own.
[45:22] Relationships. And kind of going back to what you had said about, you know, our partner won’t be able to meet all our needs. And that’s normal. That’s natural, of course. But that brings us to the second A, which is accept, right? Accept that our partner is also fallible. And maybe they They would try and they intend to do their very best and trusting that because of the commitment and care that you might have in the relationship, but knowing that they’re not going to be picked all the time, right?
[46:01] And so being able to accept what are they able to do. So in this whole conversation with the digital distraction with the phone idea they when they switch so just to backtrack when after the apology then the the listener can check in with a speaker to ask if they felt heard and understood and then if it’s a yes then they can switch roles here right after the apology they can switch roles and then and then the the new speaker who was the listener before can kind of share their perspective on this situation right because there’s always going to be another perspective and so then they can share their perspective so maybe the one who they’re they’re on the phone right they might say you know what I totally get what you’re saying and I and I want to be more present in the dinners but sometimes I do have like a work a work demand or a deadline to meet. And I, I have to, I have to meet that deadline. Like I have to get it done.
[47:07] And, um, and so they, they, they say, okay, you know, I might, I might be able to, um, have no phone rule, um, for, um, let’s say half an hour right like half an hour of the dinner like okay yes I can like be off my phone for half an hour that’s realistic that’s doable I can do that maybe maybe there will be sometimes where the latter part of the dinner I will have to excuse myself or I will have to kind of make some sense of messages over the phone um so so they they might they might say I can’t do a hundred percent but I can meet you here maybe it’s like 70 percent or 80 percent um that’s how much I’m able to do. So then going to the accept, the one who made the complaint, they might take that in and say, okay, you know what? They’re doing their best. I get where they’re coming from too.
[48:01] And I can extend that grace and know that they will and trust that they will do their very best to stay off the phone and like that half an hour is protected. But if they need to be on it after that, then I, I’m okay with that, right? I’m accepting that I’m embracing that my, my partner just has a really busy job. And this is, this is kind of the reality of what I, I am facing. Um, and that, that kind of ties in with Gottman’s concept of perpetual issues, right? So there are, there are those issues that are not going to go away, but you might be able to find some.
[48:42] Some temporary compromise with it so with this one maybe it’s like that half an hour that like okay we can do that but outside of that it might be hard um so so those perpetual issues are those those kind of ongoing the same thing keeps coming up in some kind of way over and over again um those are usually related to um personality differences or lifestyle differences or ideologies value differences maybe religious differences political differences so all these things that are harder to change about a person because it’s just part of like your identity um and and and being able to kind of navigate that as a couple um so so gotman found 69 percent are going to be perpetual issues all problems that we face are going to be yeah if you think of like just kind of the stereotypical in my head couple who’s been together for I don’t know 50 years or something and you know there’s sort of this old married couple they almost relate to those with humor right it’s like ah that’s just herb he’s just you know he just goes in his garage and he disappears for a few days so there’s like this acceptance there like this is just how he is and I’m like this and we always have this thing and that’s just the way it is so So, yeah, that’s actually refreshing.
[50:03] It’s like it helps to kind of navigate to when people are like, how much am I supposed to accept and how much should I try to fix? You know?
[50:13] Yeah. If there’s abuse happening, then that’s a bottom line, right? That’s a safety issue, then that’s a no-no. And there has to be very, very, very clear boundaries around that. If there’s any kind of safety issue, abuse, like certain things like maybe gambling, that might be interfering in the relationship. And it comes back to what we said earlier about financial well-being, right? That impacts on the financial household of the family. So addictions might be a difficult one to work through.
[50:50] I know for the Gottmans, they have a very specific way of working with addictions. So um because a lot of other couples therapy they they just say okay that’s um that’s that that is those who are are working through addictions they wouldn’t qualify to do couples work like the recommendations usually go and do um some individual work or get you know substance use treatment somewhere else and then come back and do couples work so it’s typically um that’s typically the recommendation out there in the couples therapy kind of world but um but the Gottman’s come from a different perspective which I respect and I I um it’s hard but I agree with it’s hard it’s in front of you but I do agree with it um is is you as a couple are going through it together and and the partner might be let’s say the sober one um the sober partner is there to support one who’s going through the addiction so um so that’s a whole other i mean that’s probably a podcast in and of itself but uh but just just to to know that that that.
[52:13] That committed relationship actually helps and supports the person who’s going through addiction to be able to overcome it.
[52:23] You’re leveraging the relationship to be able to build the strength of the person who’s trying to overcome the addiction. So, yeah, it’s complex. And yeah, the nuance, because it’s like without putting the responsibility on the sober partner or this also examining codependent dynamics. But yeah, that it’s like, again, it’s kind of this, we’re not in a isolation. So addiction affects the partnership and the partnership could also… Creates a healthy context around the person dealing with addiction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dynamics play out and all kinds of, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. There’s dynamics all over the place, like with extended family as well.
[53:10] So, yeah. So, how that kind of ties with the accept, like, yes, there’s certain things that there needs to be clear boundaries on for sure. But really thinking about what can you accept, right? What’s reasonable? What can there be some negotiation room there with and being able to accept it so so with this example it was i’m aware that part of me feels lonely when you’re on the phone during dinner i accept that there are times when you need to get back to someone urgently and i’m choosing to support you during those times so so this kind of reminds me of um let’s see if i can quickly find it i love it yeah i love bringing in the resource this is great i know it’s yeah this is yeah so i love this that’s you radical acceptance andrea miller so um so that kind of ties into this full concept of you know i need to accept um not only our partner but like other people around me because we can’t change anyone else we can only change our approach to it um in our our view of it. So being able to come to terms with those things that you can. Like I said, there’s certain boundaries that do need to be clear.
[54:28] And then the last piece. So I for I statements, L for listen,
[54:33] E for empathy. The first A is apology. The second A is accept. And then the D is for decide.
[54:43] So here they can decide together what what now okay we’ve had this conversation super helpful you shared your perspective i shared my perspective we both felt heard we both felt listened to there was an apology amazing there’s acceptance around whatever can be changed awesome so now what right now now what’s the next kind of step um maybe sometimes that’s enough like just having walked through that, that’s, that’s amazing. They feel already like better, right? So, so just having that conversation might’ve been enough. So then jointly they can decide like, yeah, I feel great. This was wonderful. Thanks for like sharing with me. And then, and then you just decide to, you know, extend a gratitude for each other. Like, thanks for being so amazing and in my life. And, and I love that we’re able to talk about these things. So, so extending gratitude might be what you decide on.
[55:39] Sometimes it might be having a more explicit action plan. Like if one person has said, okay, you know what? I promised you to do this. And then the other person says, okay, I promised you to do this. So with the phone example, like, okay, I promise, you know, 30, the first 30 minutes of dinner, my phone will be locked away. I’m not going to even touch it. It’s not going to be on the table. Having the phone on the table is also a distraction, by the way um so having the phone off the table and you know in another room locked away in your in your like pocket like jacket pocket in the closet um not your not your pocket that you can easily access but um but yeah so so one person is saying 30 minutes yes i can i can commit to that i’m agreeing to do that and then the other person saying okay outside of that then you know i’ll i’ll be understanding if you do need to use it for the latter part of dinner. So you have that action plan. Maybe just having it verbally is enough. Maybe it’s helpful to even write it down. So then you can revisit it later on, you know, try it out for a week or two and then come back and be like, okay, what did we decide on? Oh, right. It was this. How did that go? Okay. That’s going really great. Amazing. Let’s keep doing it. Or you know what? We need to tweak this. So let’s, let’s try to reconfigure a little bit more.
[57:01] And so being able to do that, just about the phone thing too. This past weekend, there was a couple there who shared something that I really loved. And that was that they don’t allow any phones or TV in the room at all in their bedroom. So I thought that was such a great rule. Because oftentimes, you know, I hear the couples that I work with, like that causes conflict, like one person’s kind of scrolling in bed and they’re just kind of not paying attention to their partner and then it’s the distraction in in the bed um and so to one another’s sleep you know yeah absolutely disrupting sleep and together time right um and so yeah i thought that was a really great um decision that they had made like a very intentional decision that they had made going into their relationship of no no screens in the bedroom so i think that’s great um so so yeah action plan might be helpful coming up with some kind of compromise um and and having having like like you said that that sense of humor and acceptance around those perpetual things that um that might might not necessarily go away so having some softening there um choosing that connection over distance and um and and being able to have that mind shift of, you’re more important than this issue.
[58:29] And then I also created some Spotify playlists for couples to use.
[58:38] Excuse me, as they kind of navigate different cycles. So if they’re, if they’re caught in a negative cycle, so it’s an EFT term. Um, if they’re caught in a negative cycle, then I made a list for that, like a, a Spotify playlist that they can, they can look at. Maybe they already have a, a song in mind, but, um, but if, if not, then the list can kind of give them some inspiration. And being able to kind of tie in your experience to music I find is really healing and being able to put words or emotion sometimes it’s it’s easier to like feel it viscerally listening to a song that you can identify with as opposed to talking about it per se so it gives a different energy And then I created a positive cycle playlist. So those that offer couples some hope and some like commitment of knowing, yeah, we can work through really difficult things, but we’ll get through it together. Like I’m committed to this relationship. And so, yeah, so sometimes that’s helpful. Cool, actually, that’s, yeah, I saw that point, and I’m like, that’s really, what’s, do you remember, like, an example of a song on the positive or the negative cycle playlist?
[1:00:06] I can pull it up. Here, let me pull it up. I can, like, even show you. Here, let me stop sharing screen. That’s so cool. Yeah. The second time, my podcast I recorded yesterday, we also discussed music.
[1:00:18] Oh, yeah? So, yeah, it’s so powerful for so many things. Like it puts feelings to things that we may struggle to express. Oh, cool. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, when I was going through some difficulties in my marriage, I’m divorced now, but when we are going through some challenges, even like five years before we actually divorced, we were going through some challenges. And um and I remember there was a day that I was driving to work and a song came on the radio and oh my Talia that hit home I just started bawling my eyes out and I went into work and I was like I can’t be here yeah so I I went home like one of my colleagues was like yeah you got to go home I don’t know what’s going on that’s a good boundary that’s a good Right, like, unleashes something. Oh, yeah, these are really cool songs. So You Love Me, Scientist by Coldplay. Yes. Poison One, Hurt, Christina. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah, it, like, gives… I mean, there’s a reason that so many songs are about relationships and love, right? It’s, like, something that really…
[1:01:36] Even as you’re discussing the I lead steps, it’s so hard to stay emotionally regulated. And that’s the importance, I think, in probably so much what you do in couples therapy is just creating a context for them, a safe space for the couple to engage in those conversations and practice that communication and listening. Yes. Because you can feel like your partner is bringing something up, something that they’re not happy with. And even if they’re using I feel language and it’s a soft start, it can still trigger this toxic shame defensiveness, like this threat of like my attachment is being threatened, you know.
[1:02:23] A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s a good point. If at any point in time, let’s say your listeners are trying out this eye lead, right? And that they come to a point where, oh, you know what? Things are getting heated. Like this isn’t what I expected. Then that’s fine. Take a pause, right? Take a minute to be able to calm and soothe and gain some composure and be able to just do that self-soothing. Um Gottman recommends anywhere between 20 minutes and 24 hours to be able to have that little break um then to be able to come back right back after that break um and during that break not ruminating of like all your counter arguments and how terrible your partner is right like no during that break you are actually doing self-soothing activities that you know are tri-tested and true for yourself. So you would have already known, okay, for me, you know, journaling really helps or like yoga really helps or walking in nature for even 10 minutes helps. So, so knowing that.
[1:03:29] Knowing yourself of what helps to calm in those situations um maybe it’s even just like watching funny cat videos for five minutes like it’s being able to get your mind off of it um because in in Gottman’s research it was very clear right like there was um they did they did some studies on on flooding itself what they call flooding so if your heart rate is over 100 beats per minute um and they they had monitors on the couples that they would bring in and study and so if the heart rate was going sky high, then they would come in and say, okay, you know what, we’re having an issue with our equipment. How about you guys go into this other room and just like, don’t say anything to each other, but here, just read these magazines and just, we’ll let you know when the equipment is working again, right? So they kind of did trick them a little bit. And then they still had the heart monitors on. So then when the heart monitors came down to like 85 or so.
[1:04:26] Then they brought them back in oh the equipment’s working better now okay let’s come back in and resume that conversation just you know take two here like resume where you left off exactly where you left off let’s continue so they would they’d resume the conversation and guess what they were like two different people were able to be open receptive the logical brain was back online they’re the the language brain was back online and so they weren’t in that fight fight flight freeze fawn mode anymore so they were able to really have a meaningful conversation so that’s so important yeah just being able to take that little pause yeah that’s so much of yeah.
[1:05:05] Like, I mean, we were talking before we started recording that I, in my internship or my practicum, I saw a few couples, but couples that were engaged in conflict, it was hard. It’s, you know, they’re like you were speaking about the passion for couples therapy and how it’s very particular type of therapy because so much of it is, yeah, you’re like laying ground rules. You’re creating a safe context and you’re really making sure, yeah, you’re almost, because the heart rate monitor is amazing and we’re rarely wearing heart rate monitors. So we have to be responsible in some way for like noticing when we’re becoming dysregulated. But so many of us don’t know that or we don’t have that relationship with ourselves. So you’re kind of watching like, okay, okay, okay. Like, let me pause you, you know, you’re having to, I’m not good at that. But I would leave sessions being like frazzled. And I’m like, oh my God.
[1:06:02] I know. Yeah. I mean, from a therapist perspective, that’s another piece, right? And I have a video on this on, I think I put on Instagram around like, what do you do as a therapist when that’s in front of you? And the first step was check in on yourself, like take a breath for yourself and regulate yourself because there might be countertransference going on for yourself. As a therapist like maybe it’s reminiscent of when your parents would argue with each other and you felt like you had to kind of mediate um you know a lot of therapists we have our own backstories um so like that’s what siding with one person over another you find yourself doing that yeah that triangulation so so we um we we are drawn into this field for for various reasons and so, we have to kind of check in on ourselves so take that breath yourself as a therapist before you kind of do anything before you say anything before you intervene but just just have a little mini check-in um and take that deep breath and then say okay let me pause you here let me pause you let’s take the heart rate right and even just like in the middle of a session if you take the heart rate, I find even just that exercise of pausing.
[1:07:23] Taking the heart rate, and then they’re like, they’re counting and they’re like, they’re waiting and I’m calculating. And, and so there’s a little bit of a break there. Right. And then even just that, like, however long, maybe two minutes that it took to measure the heart rate might have even been enough for them to just take a breath right um and then uh yeah this i i grabbed these because these are pulse oximeters so when i do meet in person then i put these on my couples so each of them has one so it’s just a little thing that they put on their like on their on their finger, And then I have it set up so that if it goes over 100 beats per minute, then it beeps.
[1:08:10] So these are great. But yeah, you’re right. People aren’t going to be walking around with these all day long. That’s really cool, actually. Because I think there’s one individual client I’m thinking of who would bring in this pattern with her partner. Where they would go from like 0 to 100 in like two steps. So even in trying to break down and identify the pattern, it was like, this would happen, then I would say this, then he would say this, then bam, we’re dysregulated. And a lot of that was like active dysregulation, like yelling, screaming, but crying. Like you know but um so many people are just their dysregulation shows and like they overwhelm and the distancing and avoidance and shutdown you know and um but sometimes often before that happens there’s an increase in heart rate and then it’s like you know kind of a shutdown.
[1:09:11] Um response where they’re just not you know so what do you think about that i don’t know i don’t care okay i’m done you know that kind of um so yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah and and like when when the person shuts down like that that’s part of the definition of stonewalling is internally like physiologically they are completely flooded so on the surface they might look like they don’t care or they’re just disengaged and they like oh they don’t they don’t care. The person who sees it, they might think they don’t care about me. They don’t care about the relationship.
[1:09:50] They don’t even want to have this conversation. But internally, they’re just completely overwhelmed and they actually care so much that they are completely dysregulated and flooded. And so they’re just trying to kind of survive that experience and just kind of get through um yeah that’s why they’re shutting down because they they care too they care so much yeah yeah that’s often yeah i always say like when when we feel numb like right when there’s a lot happening and we say i just feel numb i don’t feel anything it’s there’s too much emotion there’s an overwhelm of emotion so experiences i don’t feel anything but in fact there’s a lot going on yeah, Yeah, yeah. So bringing couples in to see that, okay, yes, there’s hope. We might be going through stuff, but there’s hope. And you can see some of the positive cycle songs on here too.
[1:10:46] Just that sense of like, I’m with you. We’ll get through the storm. So through the storm, Yolanda Adams, I’m by your side, Sade. Like, you know, just…
[1:10:56] Togetherness yeah to walk through together i choose you sarah barrett marae chasing cars cool yellow another cold play song i love it it’s good yeah i saw the um the candle lit concert oh yeah oh cool the concert yeah so so it’s instrumental only yes yeah cool yeah i’m getting ads for those they’re yeah yeah cool that’s a nice like calming sensory regulating thing to do too it’s like dim lighting and just instrumental music that you know yeah that you know and enjoy and yeah so good yeah thank you that was really helpful the eye lead, useful tips and, you know, and then this idea about, you know.
[1:11:54] Regulation and self-regulation and co-regulation to be able to have those conversations too.
[1:12:00] And then the awareness of the four horsemen that, okay, when you start to feel these coming online, it’s normal, actually, it will happen. So don’t feel discouraged, but it’s about kind of, okay, pausing and like, it’s okay I don’t you know let me undo that let me kind of you know rewind do the repairs yeah I mean that or okay oh I’m stonewalling okay let’s take a break let’s you know pause and watch cat videos and then we’ll come back yeah that’s all my uh like twitter is this is just like interesting animal videos and funny funny funny animal videos pets yeah I actually had a client tell me that recently she’s like the only thing she’s like i curate my instagram it’s just dogs i don’t want to see anything else i know yeah there’s a lot of stuff out there that that yeah stuff that is it can just um yeah when you’re not really necessarily looking for it that, can be like mini traumas that you’re watching or experiencing. Yeah, just like building in some control over what you’re exposed to and being able to monitor that. It helps. Do you have any… So one of the steps is empathy.
[1:13:27] And I’m wondering if there are… Tips for that like if somebody struggles with empathy or if they feel like their partner and maybe it’s because the partner struggles with their own shame and so their defenses like their defensiveness kicks in but yeah like is there yeah there’s actually the the same gotman app that i mentioned gotman card deck app if you go on there there is a empathy card deck expressing empathy yeah oh cool on the air sorry my my dog um snagged me i’m sorry i have a mandate um so yeah expressing empathy um so just give some ideas you can look through and see what might resonate because sometimes like you know we’re not we’re not trained necessarily generally to do these things right um we as therapists are but i mean the general public are not trained to like what’s validation like you know that that comes up a lot um with my couples is like that’s a part that’s missing in their conversations and then yeah of course they’re gonna feel unheard.
[1:14:44] Of course they’re they’re not gonna feel like their partner gets them because they’re they’re not feeling validated so yeah so things like um you must feel so hopeless so like kind of mirroring the the emotion back i feel such despair in you when you talk about this so being able to tap into what what what’s bringing what emotion is bringing up for you listening to it um you’re in a tough spot here so yeah empathizing with what they’re experiencing and, I can feel the pain you feel. The world needs to stop when you’re in this much pain. So that’s all turning to words, right? And the world needs to stop when you’re in pain.
[1:15:23] I’m in the middle of doing dishes, but I see you upset. My world in this moment can stop. And I can turn towards you when you’re feeling upset. So just that sense of connectedness together in it. Yeah. So powerful yeah yeah it’s a it’s yeah it’s really nice and it it’s like you can create space for that and then because often it’s like a yes but right like you said yeah the agreeing, part you know or um you’re like you know it can be possible to empathize even if you don’t agree right it’s like just making space for the other person’s experience and emotions and then you know and allowing that to be communicated um yeah whether you think the person’s right or you think you would respond that way or you know the whole thing where we can get into our heads and and uh or allowing the other to have their space and their.
[1:16:37] Empathy and their time and then you’ll get your time as well in this conversation you know exactly yeah exactly it’s a good point because the way that the eye lead is built each person does have a turn right and so sometimes when there’s just natural conversation happening you might interrupt because you’re trying to make your point and you’re just kind of thinking about what your point is going to be as a person’s talking but just the idea that you know you’re going to get to turn like once done you know that your turn is going to come um then just patiently waiting and in the meantime focusing on what they’re actually saying right sometimes even writing things down of what they’re saying might help just to kind.
[1:17:22] Of slow down the process and be able to be present and and remember some of the points right because when you’re summarizing back you want to be able to do that accurately so even just jotting down like little keywords as the as the person is talking might help or like if you think of questions that you don’t want to forget that question just write it down and then the like the keywords around their feeling their feeling words so jotting those down because you’re going to use those when you’re doing the empathy validation piece so yeah just having having that opportunity to take notes is really helpful too almost as you’re talking and describing this and like should be taught in school you know because that’s you’re talking about kind of like natural conversation or what people are used to the conversation patterns if we even sit down and talk at all without distractions right um.
[1:18:18] So there’s this structured approach with the steps, but it’s like, you know, learning how to snowboard when you’re teaching somebody, you’re breaking it down into these like micro steps. And then when you get good at it, then you don’t think about that. And you just kind of make art with your snowboarding or whatever the thing is. Yeah so but it can take a lot of time and a lot of practice to you know okay we have to sit down we have to do these steps together and okay that works better than whatever we were doing before or yeah weren’t doing you know and eventually that’ll just become part of how we talk to one another but you know after much repetition um yeah of practicing this skill so yeah I’m just thinking about like going into a high school and teaching people how to have conversations with their friends or partners you know yeah it’s a soft skill that more workplaces are looking for and that some people don’t necessarily have that skill and so it is super important not only in our personal relationships but also our our work the kind of work that we do and and being able to even like lead a team at the workplace, being able to hear your employees’ concerns and validate that, right? They feel heard, they feel respected in the workplace.
[1:19:48] So yeah, it touches on all kinds of areas. And I love that you mentioned about school because that’s like in my heart as well to be able to bring these kind of tools to…
[1:20:06] Two kids in classrooms and and I did it a couple like a couple years ago I I did speak to a classroom um actually at my son’s school and so um we we were able to kind of talk about feelings and like naming feelings and expressing feelings and so we kind of did that more um but yeah it starts early like that was maybe a grade four class I think it was cool so yeah I think it’s it’s wonderful to be able to start early and be able to foster that emotional intelligence yeah yeah like what am I feeling what word goes with that how do I speak that to people and because yeah you were speaking about you know soft starts and harsh starts and I can even you know so partners on their phone will use the example you use they’re on their phone at dinner it’s like can you get off your phone i’m trying to talk to you and already it’s not gonna go anywhere you know and then couples are trying to rewind and figure out where the impasse is and why don’t we connect and why don’t we like each other and and it’s like oh like we you know don’t have any starting point with which we can work with one another you know yeah like rebuilding these skills like rebuilding the relationship house kind of yes yes yeah going back to the relationship.
[1:21:32] One brick at a time yeah exactly yeah and this i mean this this house it took 50 years of research to figure it out right like it’s it’s it’s it was a long road and so to be able to implement these kinds of tools will also be a road like i feel like the next generation they’re more emotionally in tune past generations so I’m hopeful for the future in that respect um yeah I see that too actually like Gen Z is very aware and and very smart in a way that I don’t know if we were you know I’ve hoped I’ve hoped for them I know they get a lot of flack but I don’t believe it I like Gen Z’s they’re all right in my books yeah I think every generation has pros and cons right yeah that’s true yeah yeah yeah it’s interesting yeah like how um I see younger people kind of grapple with relationships and yeah the things that they’ve been exposed to and even these gender dynamics is interesting it’s an interesting conversation I think it’s pretty polarized on social media in the way that so much is polarized in order to drive kind of the negative emotion that catch your attention so there’s a way you know I think that that’s.
[1:22:57] Conversation could be a lot more nuanced, but there’s a lot of frustrations around partnership and gender dynamics and like roles in households and things like that.
[1:23:11] Yeah. Yeah. That Gen Z seems to have more of an awareness of or a transcendence of. But yeah, but that’s a general statement. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. There’s more awareness of equity and fairness.
[1:23:29] And yeah, thanks for raising that because I’m actually in the midst of writing a book. Oh, wow. Yeah. It’s good you’re up to a lot, Melissa. This is good we catch up. We have to do another one sooner. In the works, yeah. But yeah, the one I’m writing, I’ve been wanting to write a book on premarital work for many years. And so finally, I’m like, okay, I just,
[1:23:54] I got to do it. Just have to sit down and do it. So I started it a couple weeks ago, actually. And then, so I have the whole outline done.
[1:24:03] And last night, I started to like, write the prologue and then started to write the first chapter. So it’s early stages. But it’s, yeah, for premarital couples, primarily. But of course, like any couple can benefit from the information. But, yeah, that’s one of the topics. That’s why I thought of it, because that was one of the topics is roles, right? Rules and expectations and invisible labor. And so that’s all. That’s cool. Yeah. I know there’s like the card game fair play to kind of just visualize and lay it out and start having conversations around it. So there’s tools that are helpful. Which is great. Yeah, it’s a tough one. And it’s one where, and I don’t necessarily see this in just heterosexual dynamics either. It seems to be that there’s, This idea of fairness, and maybe it also reflects a difference in temperament, too. If I would rather there be no socks on the floor and my partner doesn’t care, then I’m probably going to be the one picking them up, right?
[1:25:10] Yeah, levels, differing expectations of cleanliness. Interesting. My student, she’s a MSW student from U of T. She’s with me for the summer, and so she’s really interested in blog writing. And I said, yeah, please. My blog, sometimes I’m delinquent with my blog and kind of a couple years will pass and there’s no entry.
[1:25:34] But yeah, she’s interested in blog writing. And I said, yes, please go for it. And so she gave me some topic ideas that she was thinking of. And then Invisible Labor was one of them. And so I said, yeah, go for it. And then so she she has a draft. We just have to finalize the draft.
[1:25:50] And then in that I had mentioned to her about the fair play card game. And she she hadn’t heard of it before. She’s like, oh, that’s fantastic. That’s so practical and fun. Like it makes it kind of fun, right? To kind of think about, okay, what are all the tasks that I do versus what you do? And let’s see how it stacks up. um and so yeah she incorporated that in her blog as well so yeah keep an eye out for that I don’t know oh that’s really cool yeah because it’s also like what goes into every task like if I if my job.
[1:26:22] In our relationship is to write the thank you cards yeah or birthday cards well that means I have to remember them I have to know I have to keep on track it’s not as simple as like you know I have to go buy the cards I have to think of every person’s personality what kind a card they were like there’s all this work around the managing that project um you know yeah so that’s that’s uh yeah cooking is cooking if my job is to cook the three meals every day and your job is to clean the gutters once of how often do you clean them a month that’s not necessarily like tit for tat right and yeah yeah yeah yeah interesting there’s a lot in in partner because there’s sort of this like.
[1:27:13] Team relationship of how do we manage a household or how do we manage a family um how are we partners in that it’s not that necessarily romantic sphere but it’s like how do we practically make it work where we can live and function together exactly yeah yeah yeah, so i think those are good like it’s it’s good conversations and um and that’s the piece right You have to be able to sit down, have these conversations with each other, and work through it, and come up with some agreed upon solution together if possible.
[1:27:55] Um and yeah kind of going back to the seven principles as well like that it walks through the friendship foundation the the conflict management piece so yeah how are we going to solve the solvable problems how are we going to manage the perpetual problems or gridlock issues sometimes it if you’re really butting heads on it becomes a gridlock issue and then the third part um, general general bucket that is is is the comprises the seven principles is the shared meaning, so so being able to get on the same uh aligned with what the expectations are what the roles are what the rituals of connection or like rhythms of our time together being able to connect together will be, and what kind of symbolizes or represents our relationship. And so being able to kind of walk through those areas of, and our goals, what are we setting out to accomplish with our relationship? So that’s all covered at the retreats as well, like all seven principles. So that’s the seventh principle is the shared meaning. And.
[1:29:17] One thing that came out of the retreat from this past weekend was um like wanting a little bit more on the symbols part um and so it it’s actually connected to a workshop that i i’ll have in august i’ll be collaborating with someone um someone who like she does more the art therapy stuff. And so in August, like we’re aiming at the end of August to do, um, like an art therapy for couples. Right. And so I kind of want to, I have to talk to her still about it, but I kind of want to incorporate symbolism.
[1:29:58] So like, you know, what does your relationship mean? Um, like for example, my, my student, she used to be a student last year, but now she’s an associate with me. Um, So she gave an example of in her relationship that they’ve been married over 30 years. Over time, their relationship has meant and continues to mean hospitality. So then it kind of caught me thinking like, okay, because when that person at the retreat said like, okay, this like symbols thing, like we’re, you know, we’re trying to get our mind wrapped around that. And so I was thinking about it more afterwards, last night actually. And um and so i was thinking about like okay like with that example that susan had shared about hospitality like how can how can we make that into a symbol and bring in like incorporate that in potentially the workshop in august right to like do some kind of art exercise for couples symbols um and so so then i was i well chet gpt is great for this kind of stuff and like, brainstorming right so then it came up with a whole bunch of different symbols for hospitality and then one of those symbols i really liked which was breaking bread.
[1:31:20] Basic like you know straightforward kind of symbol and so so then i asked it to um draw a picture of that like a like a couple breaking bread like with people around them kind of thing And so it created this like image, animated kind of image of breaking bread. And so like, oh, that’s so perfect. Like, I think that’s so wonderful. So then, you know, you could take that. And then and then and then in like the art workshop, for example, then like draw, draw you guys breaking bread or like just even drawing a loaf of bread and and just that that symbolizes the hospitality. So yeah so that that piece um cool it’s almost like uh creating like a logo or a what do you call those things like um.
[1:32:09] Cigna you know or like the the coat of arms for your relationship like what’s what’s you know what represents your partnership or your exactly yeah it’s beautiful because a lot of the time we do have images in our head or we yeah or even to think about what image would come to mind if you think about your relationship or what are the images um and how do we make those concrete or bring them to life or like yeah represent them to think of yeah what does our partnerships stand for what symbolizes it or yeah what are our shared shared values purpose direction you know yes past present future like the narrative like it’s a kind of leaving narrative therapy and yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah and yeah so past present future would be and then that kind of ties in with the goals as well what we still want to accomplish you know five years 10 years 20 years in retirement etc so yeah yeah that’s really cool yeah so those are all the kind of topic areas that we that we cover in the retreat and then the next one is um i booked at the same place the queen of apostles and that’ll be may 29th to 31st next year 2026 yes and then And there’s something coming up in August. Do you still have spots open for that for people who are interested? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:33:39] Honestly, we haven’t opened it yet. We haven’t opened the registration yet. So, yes. But if people are interested, just email me and then they can already be on the pre-registration list. Perfect. Yeah. Maybe what people can do is go to, I’ll put a link for your website. And if they go and grab the iLead freebie, then they’ll be on your mailing list and then they’ll get updates about what’s coming next. Exactly. Yeah. That’s the easiest way to do it. Yeah. Just to kind of get on the mailing list. And then they’ll be the first to know about when something’s open for registration. So I had that one in August. That’s the art one. And then this one, May 29th to 31st. And then September, this coming September, we have a money talk one. So an anti-budget couples edition. So I’m excited for that too. So I’m partnering with Angie Ross on that. So she’s a money coach. And I’m just trying to find a date. I think it’s September 25th. Let me just double check.
[1:34:49] That’s cool. Yeah, I love that there’s this, like, acknowledgement and then embracing of this financial piece, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Important, yeah. Oh, yeah, here it is. September 23rd, it’s a Tuesday. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s at a 17th. It’s my niece’s birthday. Aw. Yeah.
[1:35:12] Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. Okay, that’s great. So it’s like, it sounds like it’s practical advice for financials. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, kind of aligning on what, again, what are our goals? And then depending on what the goals are, tying, you know, sometimes there’s money attached to the goal, right? So then being able to backtrack. So if we’re, if our goal, you know, we’re, we’re aligned on our, on our shared value of travel. So we love to travel. So then our goal is next year to go on an Alaskan cruise to see the Bora Borealis. Okay. I’m just like thinking out loud here. That is one of my bucket list items. Yeah, that’s cool. And so if that’s our goal, like let’s say next year to do that Alaskan cruise, then how much is that going to cost? And then backtracking. So if it’s going to cost like, I don’t know, they’re expensive. Let’s say $10,000 for both of us. I don’t know. And so then backtracking. So we have like, hey, let’s say a year and a half to save for it.
[1:36:22] Then how much do we need to save each month? And then creating its own separate account that is a savings account that doesn’t have any kind of bank charges, right? So you can just contribute to the savings account and it’s just money sitting there that you’re contributing to. And so every month saving for that Alaskan cruise. So then eventually you’ll be able to go on that cruise and not go into debt as a result, but actually have the money saved for it. So yeah so anyway little tips like that right that she’ll you know walk through that’s good yeah so it’s helping to kind of create a space to figure out okay how are we going to yeah because again money conversations are another of those sticky like unpleasant sometimes conversations that we don’t it’s like how do we even do this but then okay like if every month we’re putting aside a little bit we’re going to put it in.
[1:37:18] This tax-free mutual fund or whatever and then at the end of the year we have it so um yeah that’s good and then then we can go on our cruise and then it’s not a stress that we’re always kind of grappling with exactly yeah yeah christmas is another one right like um if christmas you know you’re gonna spend like two thousand dollars in total on entertainment food travel um gifts right decorations whatever the whole christmas budget is whatever that all entails if it adds up to like two thousand three thousand dollars then kind of backtracking okay what do we need to save each month to be able to survive christmas and not feel totally stressed out.
[1:38:03] So interesting i’ll say this um there’s a um manifestation uh kind of business uh called um to be magnetic so there’s like an influencer that works on this and she always talks about how relationships and money are intertwined and i think the the symbolism in both of those things is like security and um freedom responsibility like there’s so much tied up in money you know that uh in our relationship to money so it’s an interesting it’s good it’s bold to just bring it into the conversation and you know yeah yeah with the book that i’m writing there’s a there’s a on money too and um and then yeah kind of delving into just that right where did our story of money start where’s that from like what was our parents experience with money what did we witness to that um and what does money mean to us so yeah it’s it’s quite charged right it’s it goes quite quite deep yeah and especially in in marriage like there’s this like combining of finances very often yeah um and so it’s like i inherit your money issues you’re gonna take on mine now we have to sort through that if we’ve never looked at that before here it is it’s like in front of us yes so i don’t know.
[1:39:27] Yeah. Well, that’s so good. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. Thanks so much, Melissa. Any final thoughts or anything you want to wrap up with? We’ll put all your links in the show notes. Great yeah no i think that’s great like i i think that um you know if couples are kind of wondering about how to like maybe they don’t necessarily want to do couples counseling but they’re just curious about wanting to know more tools or have more tools or do something some kind of couple activity together like the workshops we have workshops pretty regularly on different topics. And then, and then the retreat, like, I think that’s a nice way to kind of, you know, if you don’t necessarily want to do the in-depth couples therapy,
[1:40:15] then there’s other options out there. And even for those couples who, like, they’re in a good place, right? They’re, they’re happy, they’re content, they’re in a good place. It’s for them too, right? To be able to maintain that good place, because that takes effort and work too, just to maintain.
[1:40:34] So yeah, I remember I had made that point at the retreat as well of like, you know, if you’re going to go to the gym and work out and you have a certain goal for your body to, you know, build a certain amount of muscle tone or like have a certain percent of body fat, whatever. And then you work really hard and then you attain your goal, you achieved your goal, then if you want to maintain that, even just maintaining that takes work.
[1:41:01] The relationship is the same way. Just to maintain it also takes that work. So maybe it’s not necessarily delving into full-on couples therapy, but maybe it’s doing a workshop or doing a retreat or something like that. Yeah. It’s good because the Gottmans, one thing I appreciate about them is the way they present their information is seems it’s very digestible I wouldn’t say simple but it has that like it’s not very complicated or very you know cognitive but there’s so much research and so for a couple who everything is working and they’re and they’re great and it’s like nice to just know oh this is what you’ve been doing maybe because you have these seven principles down pat it’s kind of like you hit your like muscle building goal like to use your analogy but you didn’t you don’t know what you did right and it’s like well you went to the gym you tracked your macros and it’s like oh right right okay okay so just keep doing that right otherwise it’s like okay I don’t know what what’s working maybe we just really get along but to know okay like you’re actually following these principles turns out um.
[1:42:09] And you’ve accepted the 69% of things that don’t align.
[1:42:14] So good for you because who can naturally just do that by accident, you know? No, that takes effort in and of itself. Yeah. And just like a lot of emotional maturity.
[1:42:26] Yeah. Yeah. And my team is obviously there for those couples who do want to do that deep dive and do that, you know, more traditional couples work. So they see they see couples for all kinds of different reasons whether it’s you know depression anxiety infidelity um communication issues conflict management okay we’re always having the same argument like how are we going to navigate that feeling disconnected like that’s one we see quite a lot is just you know where we’ve had kids like we’re just we’re busy with the kids and we just we don’t even know who each other are anymore um and so that that comes up um quite a bit as well just that sense of disconnection so then being able to bring them back together and reform that that bond again so yeah it was great cool yeah so anyone listening check out the show notes to get in touch with melissa go on a retreat or yeah access some of the resources and yeah this is really good thank you so much that was really helpful and i liked the lesson i think that’s going to be really beneficial for people the eyelid oh good yeah Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. I’m glad. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um.
[1:43:48] Yeah, I, it was, it was, uh, uh, an exercise that I had put together and, and it was like, maybe for a good week or so, maybe 10 days. It just like, it was one of those things that just like consumed me. Like, oh, I could add this and, oh, I can add this. And so, so it started off without another, without a second A and, and without the heart of like, you know, defining the two different areas. And so it’s like over those maybe, maybe 10 days or so, I was like tweaking it, evolving it, you know, using it with my clients. And then they would give me feedback on even just the handout. When I, when I had, you know, the, what I showed you of just the content. Content and then my I remember a couple I was I am working with that said like this is amazing it’s so helpful but can you put it in just one summary cheat sheet page and so then I added that you’ll see if you if you download the the handout there is that at the end like I didn’t show it here but it was after the content part of the instructions then there’s another page that was just just like a cheat sheet yeah and that took um that took because i wanted it to be pretty.
[1:45:03] And like you know and and be able to you know i’m, bring in my logo and like bring in little emojis but then the emojis I wanted them to be my my my logo colors and anyway it was like a whole thing just to like put that cheat sheet together but yeah I hope people appreciate it and and find it useful so that was that was the whole idea um just to be able to provide some framework that um that couples can use like if there’s something just heavy on your heart heavy on your mind like how how can we navigate this so that we set that conversation up for success yeah and then you can just print out the cheat sheet or write down the points and then have it with you put it on the table okay wait we missed a step let’s go back okay empathize please yeah like they could even if they’re on the go like they can just take a picture of the cheat sheet right and then it’s in their photos and then they can just pull it up like if they’re on vacation or you know they’re they’re like at a family member’s house or something and then something comes up and they need to kind of have a conversation and they can pull up the cheat sheet from wherever they are just yeah is it yeah even just the um i statement it can be it can feel clunky and kind of foreign in your mouth if you’re not used to speaking that way so it’s like wait hey i stop using your okay no sorry wait i feel lonely when you’re right yes, But it changes the whole game. It does.
[1:46:29] If it’s an I statement that says, I feel that you always leave the dishes out or whatever, then it’s just a criticism under the disguise of an I statement. That’s not an I statement.
[1:46:47] I feel that whenever the next bit is that. No, no, no. Start again. It needs to be a feeling word. yeah like yeah otherwise you’re just kind of hiding a judgment or a criticism right yeah i feel that you are an idiot exactly yeah i feel frustrated when you do this thing and yeah that i think is idiotic but maybe you keep that part to yourself yeah yeah yeah keeping the harsh statements but stating what you feel about what’s going on that’s fair and what you need thank you so much Melissa yeah it was fun thanks for coming me thanks for coming.
Well, April was tough (I’ll explain the reasons in another email or blog post), but I’m hoping for sun and flowers in May. So, let’s kick the good times off with more educational material on the plague of our times: insulin resistance!
Two weeks ago, I completed filming for my Insulin Resistance course for a company that plans to launch in Fall 2025. We filmed over three full days and got 10 hours of content. The course pulls together everything I know about insulin resistance and metabolic health (there are over 100 references). We talk about food, of course, and exercise, but also the impacts of sleep and stress on our metabolic health.
We discuss self-compassion, motivation, and mindset in the 10-hour session (which should be edited down to about 6 hours, hopefully). We also address common obstacles using the Theory of Change model and other tools from my psychotherapy practice. This is because insulin resistance is a holistic problem that must be addressed holistically, through mind, body, behaviours, emotions, and biochemistry.
A few weeks ago, I released a podcast interview with Dr. Ali Chappell, PhD, on her Low-Insulin Lifestyle. It garnered much interest, probably because we’re all trying to clear away the food noise and figure out how to eat and nourish ourselves in this metabolically deranged day and age.
I received many questions about the podcast, so I decided to release a sister episode, a (much) shorter version of my insulin resistance course, that provides more details on how to approach healing your metabolic health.
I even created a PowerPoint for the occasion. Think of it as a free, access-anytime webinar to help educate you about insulin resistance.
Talia: [0:01] Hello, everybody. I am Dr. Talia Marcheggiani.
Talia: [0:06] I’m a naturopathic doctor and a registered psychotherapist now. And last podcast, we interviewed Dr. Ali Chappell, who talked about the low-insulin lifestyle that got a lot of attention, a lot of interest. So a.
Talia [0:30] And the podcast was all about the impact of certain foods on our insulin levels with this underlying theme of insulin resistance. And I decided to do a presentation today on insulin resistance, the plague of our times. I recently just recorded a 10-hour course for a project that should be released this fall. I also have a microbiome course with the same company. A 10 hour it was 10 hours of filming on insulin resistance um and it was a it was an amazing course i had a lot of fun producing it we filmed it over three days and i feel like it was just a very holistic course where we talked about diet and we also talked about obviously exercise and sleep and stress and but we even rolled in things like self-compassion and motivation, and overcoming obstacles and long-term management, the stages of change. And it was just this all-encompassing, very holistic course. I’m really excited to let you know when it comes out. And so based on that research that I did, I had hundreds of references. And one of the people that I reference is Dr. Ali Chappell. But based on that, I decided to do a presentation on insulin resistance itself.
Talia: [1:52] Because insulin resistance is the plague of our times. So ultimately, all of the health fluencers and everyone that’s talking about health is in some way or another addressing insulin resistance. And if they’re not, then they’re missing a huge layer of what’s going on with our health. Ever since, you know, doing my course, thinking about insulin resistance in a more holistic, but also in a deeper way. I’ve come to understand, and trying the low-insulin lifestyle and looking at the impact of insulin on my body, I’ve come to really appreciate the level at which insulin resistance plays a role in our health and conditions like adrenal fatigue or, you know, even estrogen dominance, these kind of naturopathic conditions that tend to have different names over time, you know, candida overgrowth, SIBO. I’m not saying those conditions are only insulin resistance,
Talia: [2:56] but my stance is insulin resistance until proven otherwise. And we’ll get into why in a second. So I’m Dr. Tali Markajani, metabolic doctor, and let’s get into it. [3:16] So insulin resistance let’s just do a quick overview because we didn’t really get into this with the dr ali chapel of course i mean she had a lot of great analogies but essentially insulin is a peptide so a series of protein of amino acids that creates a protein it acts like a hormone in the body its main function is glucose control so insulin’s job is to shuttle glucose from the blood into our cells. When we eat, we break down the carbohydrates from our food. This raises our blood sugar. And insulin’s job is to make sure that our blood sugar stays within a normal range. When our blood sugar goes too high, our body doesn’t like that. That’s toxic to the body.
[3:56] But we also need sugar for energy. So insulin’s job is to get that sugar into the cells through the cellular receptors. So it’s like a lock and key. You have insulin, the hormone or peptide that, you know, enters into the lock of the cell receptor. And it makes all of these different things happen within the cell, allowing glucose to get in. Glucose goes into the mitochondria. It does the whole, remember the glycolysis, the Krebs cycle, and then it moves along the electron, well, the NADH and all of the components that are produced, move along the electron transport chain with the power of oxygen, and make ATP, which is the energy currency of the cell. So our body uses glucose for energy.
[4:48] So insulin’s job is to make sure that glucose can get into the cell or it can be used for energy, but it also keeps glucose within a range in our blood. It prevents glucose from going too high in the blood.
[5:00] Now, when we become insulin resistant, one of the mechanisms is that we are spiking our glucose too often, so we need to call on insulin too often. And even though you need insulin to survive, if your pancreas, the hormone that makes insulin, or sorry, the organ that secretes insulin, if it’s not functioning, you don’t make insulin, such as in the case of type 1 diabetes, juvenile diabetes, you waste away and die unless you inject insulin into your body to do the important work of allowing your body to absorb, allowing your cells to get glucose. But when you have healthy functioning pancreas and you’re calling on insulin over and over again to manage repeated blood sugar spikes this can create some resistance in the cell where instead of having in this example you have two receptors on the cell now your cell takes one away and you just have one receptor and it’s harder to stimulate that receptor you need more insulin in order to do that. So then your insulin levels start to climb, and eventually your body has a hard time managing glucose levels.
[6:15] This starts off in muscle cells and fat cells and liver cells, where there’s a whole other cascade that we get into in my course. I don’t know if it’s relevant here, but essentially fat cells become overstuffed, because when your body needs somewhere to put that glucose and if it’s not burning it, it starts to turn it into fat. So it loads fat cells up with glucose that gets turned into fat. Then those fat cells become so overstuffed and insulin resistant that they start leaking fat. This creates inflammation in the body, elevates triglycerides, and it starts to create an inflammation, causes more insulin resistance. And there’s a whole bunch of vicious cycles that can occur with this imbalance in our body. Because one of the things that my friend and I were talking about, my friend who’s a medical doctor, whose clinic I used to rent, she was like, why would this happen? Like, why would our body respond in this way? Why do we, you know, rather than establish homeostasis where everything stays within a healthy balance, why does our body kind of spiral that when you have all these blood sugar spikes, you know, it’s hard for our body to figure out what to do. And I think it exposes this weak point in our physiology, because our bodies were designed and evolved through millennia of periods where starvation was commonplace. And it’s only in the modern era…
[7:38] That we’re exposed to so much caloric density in our diets. And there’s a bunch of other things that have occurred in our diets over the last hundred or so years, and that is the increase in processed food and endocrine disruptors, chemicals in our environment that trigger inflammation and that mess up our insulin receptors. We’re a lot more sedentary. We don’t have the muscle sink anymore that we used to.
[8:06] We’re a lot more stressed and we are consuming a lot more refined starch and sugar. And as a result of sort of the 1970s shift in our diet that told us to consume five to 11 servings of grains a day and to restrict our fat and our animal foods. So ultimately our protein. So our diet became very carbohydrate heavy and deficient in other macronutrients like fat and protein. We became more sedentary. We became more stressed. So these are just a few things. And stress is another cascade. So cortisol’s job is to raise, it has lots of jobs, but cortisol stress hormones job is to raise our blood sugar. So that calls on insulin in the absence even of food to try to bring blood sugar under control. So you create this vicious cycle when you’re extremely stressed out. When you have a lot of inflammation in your body, that triggers a release of cortisol to manage the inflammation, which again triggers insulin to be released. And inflammation independently can cause insulin resistance. And again, you know, and then the more insulin resistant you are, the more inflammation you have because the more your fat cells leak, and then the more insulin resistant you become.
[9:22] Sarcopenia, So being skinny fat or not having enough muscle on your body, you don’t have this great glucose regulator of muscle that helps to manage blood sugar that often works independently of insulin. And then again, you become more insulin resistant, starting off in the muscle, and this creates this cascade where your body is storing more fat and not making muscle. You know and then this blood sugar roller coaster where if you’re repeatedly spiking your blood sugar then your insulin is being called on to bring blood sugar down that triggers hunger and cravings for sugar and so on and so on um so because of all of these different things, we are 88 to 94 percent depending on the study that you look at insulin resistant so in our society, 88% of people, or up to 94%, according to some sources, are insulin resistant. And this does not mean that you have diabetes or pre-diabetes even. You can have completely normal sugar.
[10:34] And so this is often missed. Okay, so this is really important because we don’t test fasting insulin on a regular basis, which when we’re looking at the hormone insulin, that indicates more accurately if we’re insulin resistant than just simple blood sugar.
[10:53] And insulin resistance, it has a lot of different impacts on the body. So one of the big ones is Alzheimer’s disease or otherwise termed type 3 diabetes. So the inflammation and the effect of getting energy into our brain can cause dementia. And so, you know, it used to be thought that Alzheimer’s was caused by plaques and tangles in the brain. And so drugs were geared towards reducing these plaques and tangles, but turns out that they are more likely smoke present at the fire, or even maybe even fire trucks present at the fire. They may actually be there to support the brain, but the brain’s damage is occurring because of insulin resistance. So both insulin in and of itself is toxic to the brain cells, and then ultimately when blood sugar is not controlled, that’s toxic to brain cells.
[11:50] So ultimately, we’re not able, when we’re insulin resistant, we’re not able to access energy, right? So our body is not good at bringing glucose into our cells. And therefore, you know, and eventually we end up with elevated glucose. But even before that, we’re not able to access that glucose. So think about it being a case of you’re storing energy because insulin is a storage and anabolic hormone, you’re storing energy very easily, but you’re not able to tap into that energy to break it down. And so you’re sort of starving in the land of plenty.
[12:27] Mental health issues, there’s a whole field that’s emerging called metabolic psychiatry that looks, and a lot of, in this field, there’s a lot of studies on the impact of ketogenic or extremely low-carb diets on mental health, so things like depression, anxiety, and ADHD, but also schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, so some of the more severe mental health conditions. And a lot of really amazing results have come out in a few studies that have been done. And so some theories about this is that things like depression, anxiety are the result of energy poverty in the brain. So the brain is unable to really access glucose properly. ADHD being one example of glucose hypometabolism. So the brain is not able to really use glucose. and it, you know, becomes dependent on this sort of ups and downs of glucose.
[13:29] And then in order to get energy, so there’s another vicious cycle that possibly can occur that in order to get energy, individuals with this type of glucose hypometabolism seek sugar in their environment. They rely on sugar and so they’re constantly spiking their blood sugar in order to like perk their brains up.
[13:50] Cardiovascular so these cardiometabolic diseases so and when we talk about metabolic health or metabolism we’re referring to insulin resistance metabolism is our body’s ability to use food for energy so glucose fat protein and insulin is a key hormone that allows us to use that that food especially carbohydrates for energy, and to store that energy in our cells. So any disease that’s associated with the cardiovascular system, which is impacted by insulin resistance, or any sort of metabolic issue, so obviously type 2 diabetes, but also cardiovascular disease, stroke, atherosclerosis, heart attack, hypertension, you know, any heart issue. And this is because insulin is inflammatory, And so it creates inflammation in the blood vessels. It also shifts our cholesterol balance. And so what we often think of as a disease related to consuming cholesterol or consuming a high-fat diet, bacon, cheese, is actually, in fact, likely driven by the inflammation and high insulin levels that are a result of insulin resistance. And so this creates an issue with how our body is metabolizing energy and our inflammation levels.
[15:15] Insulin resistance impacts our reproductive health, hormonal health, and sexual health. PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome, is an insulin resistance condition that causes infertility and other symptoms, hormonal imbalance, so more testosterone-like symptoms, and lack of ovulation. Erectile dysfunction is related to insulin resistance, which creates more viscous blood and prevents blood flow to the reproductive or sexual organs.
[15:45] Again, because we need energy for everything in our body. So anything that is highly dependent on energy, our liver function, our brain function, our cardiovascular health, our muscular health, all of these organs that require a constant energy turnover are going to be energy impoverished in the presence of insulin resistance because insulin is not functioning properly to allow us to access our energy from food. So instead, we’re just storing the energy for fat as fat, and we’re not breaking it down. Many cancers are also associated with insulin resistance because many cancers feed off of glucose. And then again, insulin is an anabolic hormone, causes the growth of things. Yes, you need anabolic hormones. You need there to be anabolism or the growth of things to store, to build, but you need a balance of both. You need to also be able to break things down so that you can tap into something called autophagy, where you’re clearing out damaged and dead cells. You’re able to clear out, you know, cancerous cells or precancerous cells, and you’re able to engage in repair as opposed to always storing, storing, and building.
[17:06] So we have a lot of different symptoms of insulin resistance because it affects every cell in the body and therefore it affects every hormone in the body or every organ in the body. And because insulin is a hormone, our hormones talk to one another. We have a very reductionistic view in medicine. So we like to just look at like, what does one hormone do? What does insulin do? And then that’s the end of it. And what happens when you replace it or what happens when you take it away?
[17:38] So in the case of type 1 diabetes, that kind of makes sense. The pancreas isn’t producing insulin, so you have to inject insulin into your body. There you go. Cut and dry. So a lot of things in medicine have this reductionistic kind of solution, and we can look at them reductionistically more or less, and more or less we can solve them reductionistically. But insulin resistance is a cascade, it’s a network, it’s a holistic issue.
[18:03] It is involved with these vicious cycles. As our body’s trying to compensate for an imbalance, it creates more imbalances, right? So, you know, we’re stressed, and so there’s insulin resistance that’s caused as a result of that, and then that insulin resistance causes more stress because we can’t access our energy and we can’t mount a proper stress response and that causes it. So it’s like this vicious cycle that then starts to impact our inflammation levels and our cravings and our sleep. And so we have this whole mess that’s impacting all of our organs, our behaviors, our psychology, our emotions, our mental health, as well as our physical health and our behaviors. So when we look at insulin resistance, it’s impacting everything. It impacts our skin. We get things like skin tags, right? So, we get random growths of the skin, turnover of the skin, inflammatory conditions of the skin, like psoriasis, eczema. A condition called acanthosis nigricans is the kind of this darkening or purplish pigmentation of the skin is really common sign of insulin resistance. Rosacea, a key symptom of insulin resistance is this is visceral fat. So fat around the organs, particularly the liver, the pancreas, this is like a harder inflammatory fat. It’s not the type of fat you can pinch.
[19:22] Um, but you will be storing all kinds of fat with insulin resistance, but this key is the visceral fat. And we can measure visceral fat by, you know, roughly by doing a waist to hip ratio, where you, you know, you trace a tape measure around either the thinnest part of the waist or the belly button, whatever makes most sense to measure. And then you measure the widest part of your hips. You divide the waist by the hips. Or is it the other way around? It’s a bigger number on top of a smaller number on top of a bigger number. And then it should be 0.7 or less.
[20:00] Um so right so the idea is that you have a waist that’s smaller than your hips, and if it’s large and so this is for women i believe the number is one is one for men um and and the idea is that you you know the the larger the waist or the bigger the waist circumference the more likely you have visceral fat and the more likely there’s insulin resistance there’s also visceral fat often shows up on the face. So we often have facial fat when we have visceral fat in it. It’s because of some inflammatory mechanisms. In blood work, we see elevated fasting insulin. Very interesting, and this is a huge feature in the Dr. Ali Chappell interview, but also something really frustrating in my work as a naturopathic doctor, that we simply don’t test fasting insulin. So I do as an ND, but it is never tested in routine blood work. People are often gaslit into being told that their blood sugar is fine, so they don’t need to test it, or for whatever reason, they don’t need to test it. It’s a relatively cheap test. I order it as part of a comprehensive panel, but individually, it’s about $30 plus a lab fee.
[21:15] And it tells you, quite frankly, are you insulin resistant? Because if you’re insulin resistant, the first thing that happens is your fasting insulin starts to go up. And your fasting insulin causes its own set of problems. Like I said, it encourages fat storage and it prevents the breakdown of energy. Your body is saying, store, store, store, store, store, don’t spend. So you’re not spending energy and therefore you’re in this kind of energy impoverished state. You’re more inflamed. You’re having a harder time managing your other hormones. So testing fasting insulin is very, very helpful because you’re not always going to see an elevated fasting sugar when you have insulin resistance. Eventually, your fasting sugar, once your insulin is no longer functioning at all and it cannot control your blood sugar, you’ll start to see an increase in blood sugar. And so this represents a later stage on the continuum of insulin resistance, the latest stage being a diagnosis of type 2 diabetes.
[22:21] Which is where your blood sugar is now at a point that it’s a cutoff. I believe it’s 6.5 millimoles per liter. And so you’ve hit this arbitrary cutoff, and now you have type 2 diabetes. But in the meantime, the cascade or the problem of insulin resistance, nothing special changes when you have type 2 diabetes. It’s only a point at which your blood sugar reaches a certain number, but the underlying root of disease may have been manifesting for 15 to 20 years, and that is this insulin resistance where the cells are no longer responding properly to insulin, and you’re seeing an increase in insulin levels. Even earlier than an increase in fasting insulin is an increase in postprandial insulin. So you consume a meal of starch or sugar, it’s about seven you can do a glucose challenge where you consume 75 grams of glucose it’s this disgusting drink they have you drink and then you measure your insulin and your glucose at 30 minutes at an hour at two hours and you will see the very very earliest stages you’ll see this rise in insulin after like a very high rise in insulin after consuming the sugary drink, your blood sugar will be normal but your insulin will start to rise and actually, this is the stage of insulin resistance that I found myself on in another patient who was experiencing a lot of weight gain, seemingly out of nowhere.
[23:51] And, you know, she hadn’t really changed much. She was kind of in like perimenopause. She had a relatively sedentary job, but was eating otherwise healthy and was just noticing a ton of weight gain. So we did her fasting insulin and tested her HOMA-IR,
[24:08] the homeostatic measurement assessment of insulin resistance. So it’s a measure of insulin resistance that looks at your fasting insulin and your fasting glucose, and it gives you a number to tell you the relationship between the two of them. So we did this patient’s fasting insulin, and it was actually quite low, and we calculated her HOMA-IR, because her blood sugar was obviously normal. She did not have diabetes or type 2 diabetes. And we did the HOMA-IR, and that was also normal. She was quite insulin sensitive when we just looked at her fasting levels. But how often are we fasted during the day right and this is part of the problem, because I don’t know about you but when I wake up I eat and then I keep eating until I go to bed and I do a pretty good job of spending 12 hours in a fasted state most nights meaning that, you know if I eat my breakfast at 7 I try to stop eating by 7 p.m at night so that I just give my digestive system and my body a chance to repair and reset and not just be digesting constantly.
[25:18] And it also gives my insulin a chance to settle down. But for the other 12 hours, you know, if I’m getting a large spike of insulin after eating, then I might be in this kind of high insulin state all day long. And when I fast, my insulin looks normal, but that’s not the state that my body normally lives in. So we had the idea of not doing a glucose challenge, but having her just eat a normal, healthy meal and then testing her fasting insulin an hour later. And we did find that her fasting insulin was elevated. Well, it was her postprandial insulin was elevated.
[25:55] So that would be the very, very first stage of insulin resistance. And some people notice that visceral fat is even the first stage. Before you even start to see insulin on blood work in the numbers, you see the symptoms where you’re just noticing this increase in waist circumference, and the driver of that would be insulin. This often happens during the perimenopausal transition because estrogen and progesterone, more estrogen than progesterone, but both of them to some extent, have an impact on our insulin sensitivity. So estrogen makes us more insulin sensitive. And when you go through perimenopause and your estrogen levels start to decrease, you become just de facto more insulin resistant without changing anything. And this is why so many women present with the concern of increased abdominal fat. They’re like, I haven’t done anything. I’m noticing this change in my body composition, and it’s so frustrating, and I don’t know what’s going on. And we do look at estrogen, obviously, whether it’s hormone replacement or other things that we can do. But the big thing to consider is, okay, there may be a time, this might be a time now to refocus on insulin. What was working for you in the past?
[27:16] Given now that your estrogen is lower, is likely not going to cut it anymore. And we need to start shifting lifestyle in the direction of supporting insulin sensitivity.
[27:28] So other signs in the blood are, you know, fasting glucose, obviously, when you’re in the later stages will start to be elevated. And then elevated triglycerides. Triglycerides are part of a cholesterol panel. They are the fat in the blood. So this is when the fat cells become overstuffed, particularly in the liver, we start to see an elevation in fasting triglycerides. And, you know, it’s funny because sometimes patients will come in and they’re like, my doctor says I have, I’m thinking of one patient in particular, she said, my doctor said I have high cholesterol. And so we looked at her blood work and actually have two patients with the exact same thing. Two had elevated, they both had elevated liver enzymes, showing that there’s something going on with their liver. Their liver is not happy. Their liver is experiencing inflammation. The liver is struggling in some way. That’s what elevated liver enzymes tend to tell us. And, you know, their liver’s not working properly. There’s some inflammation in the liver. The liver’s not able to process these triglycerides. And they both had elevated triglycerides. And that was the only thing abnormal in their cholesterol panel.
[28:36] And their doctor put them on a statin, which we know’s main job is to reduce LDL, cholesterol, one of the cholesterols, but total cholesterol as well.
[28:46] And, you know, has an impact on triglycerides, but not a large impact. And it’s not the therapy, in my opinion, for elevated triglycerides. It’s certainly not the first line that I would recommend. I would recommend first supporting the liver, figuring out what’s going on there. In one case, it was Tylenol overuse. In another case, it was insulin resistance that was causing fatty liver. So it’s first supporting liver and then addressing insulin resistance if it’s present. And in one patient, it was. But certainly not a statin. It’s not addressing the root or even the issue. And again, this is reductionistic, right? It’s like cholesterol, statin.
[29:27] Ignoring the fact that there’s a lot of different things going on in a cholesterol panel. And statin may be the answer for some particular people who make a lot of LDL cholesterol and they have scary high levels despite having low inflammation. And even then in that case, I would argue that we might not be that concerned about their LDL if they have low inflammation and they’re insulin sensitive. But those people would probably be the people who would benefit most from a statin just to keep them from overproducing the LDL cholesterol that they genetically overproduce. The other thing that we’ll see in blood tests are inflammatory markers elevated, and these can be elevated for various reasons, and they won’t always be elevated in insulin resistance, but we tend to see inflammation, and so that would be a reason to look at why there’s elevated inflammation.
[30:20] And you know other symptoms that we see insulin resistance affects our brain so we have brain fog it affects the health of the blood vessels we get hypertension or high blood pressure we see mental health issues for various reasons we know depression is an inflammatory condition in the brain there’s low levels of inflammation that create this um kind of like low mood an issue with serotonin and dopamine metabolism that presents the symptoms of depression, right? Low mood, sadness, apathy, you know, disinterest in things that previously brought you joy, anxiety, we know has a lot to do with this blood sugar rollercoaster triggering the autonomic nervous system.
[31:08] We get fatigue when we’re insulin resistant because we can’t, again, we can’t access our energy properly. We have difficulty losing weight because we are constantly telling our body to store, store, store, and not use. We get fatty liver and fat on the organs. I am convinced that adrenal fatigue, until proven otherwise, is insulin resistance. And my friend actually came to this conclusion when she went on the low insulin lifestyle. After I introduced her to Dr. Allie Chappell, she was like, she’s like, I no longer get that crash from 2 to 4 p.m. And she’s like, so what I thought was adrenal fatigue that I was managing with like salt and adrenal herbs and stuff like that was in fact insulin resistance. And it’s interesting too, because a lot of the adaptogenic herbs, the adrenal herbs, a lot of them have, I mean, one of the impacts of cortisol is to raise our blood sugar. So a lot of these adaptogenic herbs will raise blood sugar and it gives you kind of this boost, right? And that’s that 2 to 4 p.m. crash. We always tend to gravitate towards sugar or carbohydrate snacks during that time, unless you can take a nap or something. But it’s like this sugar crash that we get. And again, when you’re insulin resistant, you know, you’re having trouble managing your blood sugar. Maybe you had a lunch that had too many carbohydrates, you got a huge insulin spike, and then you get this huge crash from 2 to 4 p.m.
[32:30] Estrogen dominance. Again, you know, this whole sort of, PCOS thing where we’re putting on more body fat and our estrogen level, like, you know, we have heavier periods or more painful periods or, you know, this weight gain. So, even though estrogen increases insulin sensitivity, a lot of these symptoms of excess fat gain or heavy periods or irregular periods that we would tend to call estrogen dominance, this might be, in fact, insulin resistance, PMS, PMDD. Again, that’s not a known fact that those conditions are caused by insulin resistance, but knowing that insulin resistance messes with your hormones, messes with energy production, messes with your neurotransmitters, with your brain function, with your liver, which is responsible for processing hormones like estrogen. It affects your digestive system, which we know digestion is a highly energy-intensive activity. So if you’re not able to access and use your energy, you’re going to have issues with things that require a lot of energy, like digestion, like reproductive health and sexual health, hair growth, skin health, all of these things.
[33:49] So it’s sort of like every symptom in some way we could argue is connected to insulin resistance and so my advice is when patients are presented with a whole bunch of things as we do a fasting insulin test as part of routine blood work in order to assess and also given that 88 to 94 percent of us have some sort of metabolic dysfunction it’s fair to say we should definitely rule this out because the norm would be, or at least the common thread would be insulin resistance, is having some role to play in what someone’s experience is.
[34:29] So the blood sugar rollercoaster, throughout most of my naturopathic practice, I’ve been harping on this idea of blood sugar because our body does not like to have high blood sugar. This is toxic, and it doesn’t like low blood sugar, right? Low blood sugar triggers cortisol, triggers an autonomic fight or flight response, right? The sympathetic nervous system response, and that triggers cortisol, and then your blood sugar goes up, and then you’re craving, and you’re going on this roller coaster. And this is the case with anxiety. I see it time and time again um you know anxiety until again until proven otherwise is a blood sugar roller coaster phenomenon brain fog adrenal fatigue all this is connected to our blood sugar and supporting blood sugar has been really important in my naturopathic practice to support people with mental health concerns and then you know as a psychotherapist um.
[35:33] Psychotherapy is extremely effective it’s an amazing tool and modality and we really we get deep and we sort through the emotional experience and and you know the how we think and our self talk and our boundaries and we do all that stuff and uh you know but then if there’s, if a if a psychotherapy client is like having a croissant for breakfast and then a sandwich for lunch, you know, there’s only so much psychotherapy we can do without really addressing their blood sugar.
[36:09] So, you know, so many of us are on this blood sugar roller coaster day in and day out, right? You wake up and then you’re kind of nauseous and you’re anxious and that’s low blood sugar. It’s your cortisol trying to kick into gear. Then you have, you know, the typical breakfast. I, When I was a kid, I would have cereal and skim milk, like sugar cereal often. And I don’t know how I survived. But yeah, I was like daydreaming. I was like not focused. I couldn’t, you know, figure out what was going on in math. Yeah, and then I remember we had lunch and I probably made myself a sandwich. Sometimes it would have meat in it. There’d always be a sugar treat. It wasn’t a horrible lunch, but yeah, it was back in the 80s or 90s. It was kind of the height of our nutrition disaster.
[36:58] And so, so many of us still do that, right? Cereal for breakfast or toast or croissant or just kind of a carb breakfast, you know, something easy on the stomach. You wake up, you don’t have much of an appetite. You’re anxious. You just want to eat something quickly, a banana, whatever. So, your blood sugar goes up and then your body releases insulin, it comes crashing down, and then over time, you become insulin resistant because insulin stops responding effectively to, or sorry, the cells stop responding effectively to insulin. So, you need more and more insulin to create the same effect on cells. So, you end up with high insulin levels, and this triggers more sugar cravings, and so on and so on.
[37:39] And this impacts our brain. We can’t think clearly. We have brain fog. We feel anxious. we feel stressed out, we feel irritable, and we suffer from inflammation. So the blood sugar roller coaster, horrible. There’s always this New York Times article that I reference, and it’s called, Do You Have Decision Fatigue? And it talks about these parole board members who would make weird decisions just right after lunch, like that 2 to 4 p.m. They were like, I don’t know, Some guy was caught stealing and like, you know, same offense. And then all of a sudden there’d be this different parole decision right after lunch. And then when they gave them a snack, everything kind of settled. So they decided, they figured out that this decision fatigue they were having where they just couldn’t make a decision, they couldn’t think clearly, was caused by low blood sugar. And, you know, blood sugar is important. Our brain needs a steady stream of consistent energy. And so if we’re on a blood sugar roller coaster and our blood sugar is dipping, our brain is starved of nutrients and we can’t think, you know. And if your brain is particularly sensitive to this, you know, so someone with neurodivergence, anxiety, depression, you’re going to experience this all the more profoundly.
[39:03] And it’s going to feel impossible to make a decision. You’re going to feel completely overwhelmed. You’re going to feel like you cannot handle what’s going on. Um you know i had a uh another patient i’m thinking of who you know always struggled with mental health his whole life things would be good good good and then like kind of in the afternoon would get this hit of depression really profound existential depression that left him like feeling like if i don’t medicate this like i can’t function it’s horrible and we determined that yeah like that he it was a blood sugar crash ultimately blood sugar was low he hadn’t eaten for a while lunch wasn’t that substantial and breakfast wasn’t that substantial so he was going on this blood sugar roller coaster and so many of us in north america we backload our food so we eat our biggest.
[39:57] Best meal at dinner and we spend the rest of the day on a blood sugar roller coaster so i preach this all the time i’ve talked about this in courses and i was really jealous when i discovered as many of you’ve heard the glucose goddess so somebody whose entire brand is focused on blood sugar and her whole thing is that she puts on a continuous glucose monitor so this is something that measures creates these graphs here that show your blood sugar going up after you eat and she’s showing you all these different like permutations and combinations of of food and how food impacts blood sugar and so that’s really cool and i was really jealous just like five million followers. I’m like, why didn’t I think of this?
[40:37] Even the name Glucose Goddess, genius. She does a lot of good work. She’s a biochemist. I have referred tons of patients to her work.
[40:45] And so things that she talks about are, you know, apple cider vinegar prevents you from getting this glucose spike, the sour in the vinegar, the acidic acid, it helps to kind of slow this glucose absorption.
[41:00] When you add fat, fiber, and protein, so she calls this putting close on your carbs, it tends to blunt the glucose response. So fiber, how does that work? Well, fiber, it kind of creates this coating and it’s harder to access the glucose. So you don’t get this crazy spike of glucose into your bloodstream.
[41:25] But we’ll talk about what fat does in a second. And, you know, so, but, you know, to regulate blood sugars, if you’re just looking at blood sugar, then this makes sense because you’re, if you’re adding clothes to your carbs, you know, you’re, you’re adding fat and protein to your carbs, you’re not going to get this huge blood sugar spike, which is great.
[41:44] So you’re not going to be on this blood sugar roller coaster. It also slows and delays gastric emptying, so the sugar that you’re eating is sort of metered out over time. So again, you’re maintaining this steady glucose level, and that’s great. And we’ll talk really quickly about the blood sugar impact of food. There’s different ways to measure this. So you have the glycemic index. The glycemic index is like how quickly does a food spike your blood sugar? So glucose straight glucose has the highest glycemic index, like table sugar, pretty high because it’s just a glucose and fructose molecule. Your body, your digestive system splits that and then it absorbs the glucose. Starch as well, like white rice or white bread, these are, starch is a long chain of glucose. And again, when you cook it, it kind of breaks it apart. And when you digest it, it breaks into individual glucose molecules, spikes your blood sugar. When you add fiber to it, you get a slower rise in glucose. So, you know, I don’t know what has, like, I mean, brown rice is going to have a lower glycemic index because of the fiber on it.
[42:57] The glycemic load is probably a better measurement because it takes into account how much sugar is in the food. So, for example, watermelon has a high glycemic index. The sugar raises your blood sugar very quickly, but there’s not a lot of sugar in watermelon when you’re eating a normal serving. Watermelon has a lot of fiber and a lot of water, and it also has some good nutrients, too. So the glycemic load is ultimately what Glucose Goddess is looking at. In her graph, you’re seeing, okay, you’re having chickpeas, and you’re seeing both the index, I guess, because you’re seeing, okay, how quickly does her, and this is her body, how quickly does the glucose rise in her blood, and how long does it stay elevated?
[43:43] And so she shows in this case just chickpeas, which have a lot of starch in them. They also have some fiber and some protein, but not as much protein as people think. So the starch is broken down in the chickpeas, and you get this rise in glucose. And then she says, oh, if you mix, if you blend it, you’re pulverizing the fiber, and so you’re actually accessing the carbohydrates more easily. So you’re increasing the glycemic index. So look at that. Look how much faster my blood sugar rises. And then she says, but if you consume hummus, you add fat to your blended chickpeas. Look at that. You barely get a rise in blood sugar. So, wow, that’s so cool.
[44:26] So, ultimately, adding fat lowers the glycemic index, and it looks like the glycemic load. But, so I always had this suspicion, because one of the things we are not measuring is the insulin index, right? So we’re not measuring insulin at all with a continuous glucose monitor. We’re not looking at all at how insulin looks after eating. And this normally is fine because usually when glucose goes up, insulin goes up, and when glucose is flat, insulin is flat, but not always because there’s a few foods that will spike insulin or that will impact insulin but not impact blood sugar.
[45:13] And what happens when we spike insulin is we actually see, because insulin’s job is to lower blood sugar. So under this glucose goddess post is this is where I first was exposed to Dr. Allie Chappell, where she reminds us that adding fat to starch enhances the insulin response. And this is the reason you see a drop in glucose on your graph. And she’s like, I saw a similar post with bread and butter. And so adding butter to your bread doesn’t make your bread healthier, but it will flatten your glucose response so you’ll have a prettier continuous glucose monitor graph because your insulin is being spiked and that’s flattening the glucose response but it’s insulin that’s causing the issue i mean insulin is what’s causing fat storage insulin is what’s preventing you from accessing your carbohydrates to burn them and accessing fat stores to burn for energy.
[46:08] And so yeah and you know it’s okay so it’s not like i didn’t know this um but i guess i didn’t understand the impact of it and this is an important lesson for me even a holistic practitioner a naturopathic doctor who routinely tests people’s insulin levels who understands the importance of insulin who has seen elevated homa ir in all types of people who is looking at insulin resistance and considering that as a factor and assessing symptoms of it. But I was looking at it as kind of an isolated thing that can occur. I was not looking at it as like a blanket issue that is occurring across all of my patients and should be assessed in essentially everyone who have the symptoms and some signs of it.
[46:53] But yeah, I was aware of insulin and the impact of insulin on food. And I was even aware of the insulin index, which looks at the impact food has on our insulin levels. So how food spikes insulin. And I knew that, yeah, obviously white bread is going to spike your insulin because it spikes your sugar and that spikes insulin. But I also knew that things like skim milk were potent generators of insulin or created an insulin release. And so, I kind of knew, okay, you know, stuff that doesn’t necessarily have a lot of sugar has an impact on insulin levels. And so, what we know is that carbohydrates have a high insulin index, right? So, starchy carbohydrates, starches and sugar.
[47:46] Protein actually has a moderate impact on insulin. So, it will not spike your glucose. So, it’s not going to change your glucose monitor, but it will have an impact, a moderate impact, about 20% release on your insulin.
[48:02] Fat will not have an impact on insulin or blood sugar. So if you consume olive oil, if you just drink a bunch of olive oil, it’s not going to do anything to your insulin and it’s not going to do anything to your blood sugar. But when you add fat to starch, it will accentuate an insulin response.
[48:20] So it is going to impact fat storage. And we knew this from adding fat and sugar was a potent way to store fat. So, you know, so this was something that I knew, but I never really kind of connected this to Glucose Goddess’s work. And so I thank Dr. Allie Chappell, and this is how I found out about her. So Allie Chappell, her, she created, because she works with PCOS, she created this idea of like, okay, foods that spike insulin are starches. Okay. So rice, not just white rice all rice bread flowers you know potatoes sweet potatoes um so kind of like tubers and grains essentially and legumes sugar so table sugar added sugar but also whey protein so unfermented dairy so milk um you know whey protein powder because whey protein stimulates a peptide called IGF-1 or insulin-like growth factor 1. And again, we know that insulin is a storage hormone. So whey protein is used for muscle building because we need insulin. We need IGF-1 to stimulate muscle protein synthesis.
[49:40] But if we’re trying to keep our insulin levels down, maybe we should be weary or maybe we should just be aware of the fact that whey protein can stimulate an insulin release and it won’t have any effect on your continuous glucose monitor. This was a whole debate that Dr. Allie Chappell got into and we’ll talk about
[49:57] it when we talk about protein in a second. It was also part of my conversation with her, And I think it’s a little bit where we differ, but I’ll get into that. Foods that don’t spike insulin are non-starchy, colorful fruits and vegetables. Okay, so leafy greens, colorful stuff.
[50:17] Fruits contain fructose, so they don’t have as much, rather than glucose, which is what starch is made of. So it doesn’t have as much of an impact on our blood sugar levels and our insulin. Our liver converts fructose into glucose eventually, but it doesn’t create this big glucose spike and an insulin spike. You will see a rise on a continuous glucose monitor when you consume fruit, but you’re not seeing as much of a rise in insulin. And fruit also has fiber, so it’s managing the glycemic index. And it doesn’t have that much sugar fruit, so it also has sort of a moderate glycemic load. So a good way to get carbohydrates if you’re trying not to spike your insulin is from fruit and vegetables non-starchy vegetables so animal protein again a moderate impact on insulin about 20% that of starches fermented dairy so she recommends this in limited quantities it’s about a cup of greek yogurt or an ounce of cheese nuts and seeds don’t impact insulin so you know which is you can have tons of almonds whatever and fats have no impact on insulin so it’s ultimately this kind of paleo diet where you’re not including legumes and you’re not including potatoes. And so there’s a lot of research she’s done on this.
[51:36] I’m sorry, my face is covering some of it. But so there’s three studies that she conducted and a randomized control trial. And it was on women with PCOS. So I would love to see this study extended to, I would love to see it extended to mental health because there’s some research on ketogenic diets for mental health. And my story that I’ve shared on my blog is that, you know, before Christmas of 2024, I kind of just was going through a funk and I just said, you know what, screw it. Like I’ve been avoiding gluten for forever. And I just don’t want to anymore. So I just went back to eating bread and it was glorious. I had a great time. I had brie. I had baguettes. Like I had sandwiches. It was amazing.
[52:27] But my body was not happy, and I had horrific brain fog. That was the first thing I noticed, and all this water retention, inflammation, I just felt horrible. So after Christmas, I said, you know what? I need a bit of a reset. My gut is not happy. My brain is not happy. And I did a ketogenic diet, more specifically the carnivore diet. I wanted to try it. I just wanted to simplify things.
[52:49] And I just wanted to give my gut a reset. And there’s actually a benefit. This is very counterintuitive and an aside, but there is a benefit. There’s documented evidence that just restricting fiber can actually help digestion. For me, it was a good reset. I don’t think we should avoid fiber forever. Maybe some people with particular health concerns need to, but for me, it was a good reset. So I did the carnivore diet for about three months and I felt my mental health was fantastic. I felt my brain fog clear in like 24 hours and it felt magical but one of the things with carnivore diet is it’s very hard because you’re you don’t have any carbohydrates in your diet at all you don’t have what we what’s called muscle glycogen which is this stored starch-like molecule in the muscles that allows us to burn energy quickly and also retain some water in the muscles so one of the very common symptoms that people experience on a ketogenic diet, especially a carnivore diet, is like a lot of thirst and issue with water balance and muscle fatigue. So I felt that. I felt like I didn’t have strong endurance.
[53:57] I felt, you know, and then at a certain point, I just felt like food was just very brown and I was not so much craving, but I liked the idea of colorful fruits and vegetables and juicy like apples and stuff so my friend um started doing the low insulin lifestyle because i was i was discovering it around the time that i was doing carnivore i was writing my course.
[54:23] On insulin resistance and um.
[54:27] And, uh, and she was trying to do the carnivore too, but it was breastfeeding. And so it wasn’t working out. She, it was affecting her, her milk supply. So she decided to try this and she was, she was like, you know, I feel great. I don’t have any cravings. You know, by day three, like I’m really, really full and satisfied. And again, it’s because you’re able to tap into your energy because your insulin levels are low. So you’re using your body’s energy stores. Um, And, you know, I was also kind of stagnant on carnivore. And so the big aha moment I had was that I was mixing whey protein into yogurt almost every day to get this kind of hydration.
[55:07] And also the whey protein was kind of sweet. And it was a fast way to, you know, instead of having to like cook meat and chicken and eggs, it was something quick that I could have as a snack when I wanted food. So I was having whey protein almost every day. And so I wasn’t experiencing any weight loss. And I was, you know, it kind of, I wouldn’t exactly crave things, but I don’t know. Something just didn’t feel right. So I switched to this, I started adding back in fruits and vegetables. And it felt really, really good. And it felt very sustainable. And I started reflecting on things I’ve tried in the past, things that were successful for me, ways of eating, paleo, particularly comes to mind as something that felt very wholesome and holistic and satisfied my nutrient needs. And I was like, you know, what works about paleo was probably this. Fruits and vegetables, animal protein and fat, nuts and seeds.
[55:58] And, you know, I looked back at my life and, you know, my particular response to carbohydrates and likely having something called reactive hypoglycemia, where you get a big insulin response. Your insulin is, you get a big insulin response essentially after eating. So, you’re not carbohydrate sensitive. In other words, you’re carbohydrate intolerant, right? The glucose tolerance test, you get this big spike of insulin after you consume carbohydrates.
[56:27] I don’t think that I’ve ever really been glucose tolerant and I don’t know if that’s my Mediterranean genetics I don’t know what’s going on with that but then you know putting the pieces together so I think a lot of people really resonated with this idea because when I sent an email out and shared the Dr. Ali Chappell interview a lot of people were like responding and I mean I think that a lot of people were seeing this as like the next new diet right because the the tagline is in two months women lost with PCOS lost 19 pounds and they didn’t restrict what they were eating they ate all that they wanted from a number of foods fruits non-starchy vegetables and fruits animal proteins also some plant-based proteins tofu edamame hemp nuts and seeds and fats and so they ate everything they wanted they didn’t restrict at all. They were told not to exercise just to standardize, but exercise would actually probably have enhanced their results.
[57:31] And yeah, they had great weight loss. Weight loss that is not typical in a lot of studies. You know, you can expect maybe 11 pounds in four months on a calorie-restricted diet. You can expect maybe something like 11 pounds in six months on a ketogenic diet or intermittent fasting, things like that. So 19 pounds in two months, unrestricted, is pretty incredible. Eating all the fruit you want, because people are always kind of wary about fruit, and we like fruit and nuts and seeds, and these are kind of foods that are appealing.
[58:08] So yeah, it was this great tagline. A lot of people were writing to me, how should I do this? What should I do? I think for me, the biggest thing, it’s not so much weight loss. It’s the digestion feels great. Brain feels good. Energy feels good. I’m not constantly hungry like I always have been. I was like pounding back protein to prevent myself from eating constantly. It’s like always with kind of this food noise in the background. I don’t have that on this. And I feel very satisfied. And you get all of the nutrients that you need. It’s not that grains and legumes are bad for you.
[58:43] It’s just that they contain starch and you can have all of the you can easily get the nutrients that you need from fruits vegetables animal animal proteins and animal foods and so it’s this kind of comprehensive feels very holistic diet you know um.
[58:58] So there’s lots of different studies that were done. Her classic kind of PhD study, she just did the diet for a test drive. Another study, they looked at how much fat people were burning after they consumed a high-fat, high-calorie shake. So before they were on the low-insulin lifestyle, the insulin in their body prevented them from tapping into fat. So they were just essentially burning sugar and then hungry, burning sugar and then hungry, and storing fat. But after the two months of the low insulin lifestyle, they were able to burn fat. And so this is also supporting consistent energy levels, you know, in the brain and in the body and reduced hunger and cravings. Because you’re able to tap into your energy stores. You’re able to tap into fat. You’re able to be what we call metabolically flexible, where you burn sugar. When you’re done burning the sugar, you burn fat.
[59:52] And so you’re no longer, you’re off now the blood sugar rollercoaster where you just burn sugar. Than cray sugar burn sugar cray sugar burn sugar cray sugar um another study looked at time to conception because it’s pcos so the goal for many people was fertility and it was about 85 days was the average time to conception and another study looked at standard treatment so it was like a mediterranean diet exercise metformin calorie restriction all in one group and the other group did the low insulin lifestyle and the Mediterranean diet people gained a third of a pound in two months and the low insulin lifestyle people, they lost their 17 to 19 pounds. They had people do diet diaries a couple times. So again, no restriction. My thing that I always think about with the diet diary is if I was a participant and you asked me to fill out a diet diary, I probably would, it would influence how I eat that day for sure. I wouldn’t eat like the pound of bacon or binge on a bunch of nuts and seeds if I knew I had to record it. So I think you can maybe assume.
[1:01:00] And I haven’t, you know, Dr. Ali kind of agreed with this, but I don’t know if, you know, she fully did. You can maybe assume that it was sort of their best day. And that would be, you know, like an average really lower calorie day. But the diet diaries showed that they were consuming about 1400 calories again they’re not counting they’re not tracking they’re just eating what they want from the amount of foods that they’re allowed again you could eat like all bananas technically you could eat all bacon like, but they were they were sort of and this is also the thing when we’re eating whole foods because ultimately fruits vegetables and animal protein these are our whole foods that we find in nature You, you know, get some lettuce that’s growing from the ground, you pull an apple off a tree, you kill a chicken or eat its eggs, right? These are like whole foods, they come from the foods in nature, whereas like, you know, rice, yeah, it’s still a whole food, it’s not that processed, but it still requires this kind of refining and processing to get it to something that you can eat.
[1:02:10] And so when it turns out that when we’re eating these whole foods it it has a very satiating effect in part because of its impact on our insulin levels and our ability to kind of be metabolically flexible but we also are like kind of able to to tap into our body and what it needs, And there’s been studies on this in babies, actually. And they found that, like, yeah, your body can kind of ask for the nutrients it wants. So it’s like, do you want an apple? So that’s kind of more of a sugary thing. Or do you want something savory, which would be like chicken? And they actually ended up eating quite a bit more protein than the typical, you know, woman that I see in my practice.
[1:02:57] They’re eating about 95, 90, 94 grams of protein a day without trying to track and emphasize protein. And I think the reason for this is because, yeah, you’re either eating kind of like a sweet food, or if you want a savory food, you’re going to go for protein. It just, because you just have these whole foods to draw from, you’re probably going to do about at least a quarter of your foods are going to be these animal proteins. And so then you end up eating about 25% of your calories from protein, about 30% came from carbs, about 90 grams of carbs. So that is a low carb diet that they were naturally eating. Again it’s very very hard to get a lot of carbs when you’re just eating fruit and vegetables because there’s only so many apples you can eat there’s only so many grams of carbs in broccoli or something like that whereas yeah if you eat a cup of rice you’re getting a huge dose of starch and they were actually eating quite high fat so about 45 percent of their calories were coming from fat so it’s a higher fat diet a moderate protein diet and a low carb diet and that’s just naturally what people gravitated to when they were given those foods to eat. So really cool. I think I probably eat more than 1,400 a day. Definitely, actually. But this was ultimately what resulted in their weight loss. But they were also able to tap into the fat because their insulin levels were low. And they had a 50% reduction in their insulin levels after two months.
Speaker0: [1:04:25] So, really impactful research-based lifestyle, you know, and I would love to see, I think there’s going to be more in the works of this lifestyle, but I would love to see some research on it for mental health. I know that the PCOS patients, they filled up quality of life questionnaires, and they did have a positive impact on their mental health. Um but you know i don’t know if they were doing they weren’t doing like um you know gad sevens and stuff like that measuring their anxiety their depression like phq9s like measuring their mental health specifically they were measuring like quality like you know their tendency to binge eat went down their irritability and impulsivity went down so kind of their food behaviors and how that relates to mental health all improved but there wasn’t i don’t as far as or any specific like mental health symptoms. Although subjectively, if you talk to them, I’m sure that they would probably have good things to say about how they felt mentally and emotionally. Yeah. So, the thing, the protein question, so there was a lot of controversy. I don’t want to, like, draw more attention to it, but Dr. Allie Chappell was involved in this debate around whey protein.
Speaker0: [1:05:41] And the main argument was, so in my podcast, she was talking about how whey protein is a waste product, and whey stimulates IGF-1, so it stimulates insulin, and that’s not good for us. And so on the low insulin lifestyle, they’re told no whey protein, they’re told limited amounts of fermented dairy or so that they don’t overly impact their insulin levels. And, you know, and then we get all these great results. So, okay. So yeah, whey protein highly stimulates insulin. And so she recommends against it. And then she also says, you know, I think we emphasize protein too much. And I will tend to, so this is what we see, right? So I have been harping, just like the blood sugar thing, I’ve been harping protein, protein, protein, you need to eat more protein. Look at someone’s dietary, you’re not eating enough protein. You’re, you know, a perimenopausal woman with insulin resistance, you need to eat more protein. I will actually, when working with diet with people, I will tell them to eat protein first. And I see memes all over the place now.
Speaker0: [1:06:48] Where it’s like, you know, eating protein is a full-time job. It’s so hard to eat protein. And then you have protein cereal and protein bread and protein pancakes. And it’s usually whey protein that they add to that to get the protein.
Speaker0: [1:07:01] So Dr. Allie is like, whey is a waste product and it’s, you know, impacting your insulin levels. So avoid it.
Speaker0: [1:07:10] And then she had a debate with somebody who said, okay, you’re looking at the mechanism. You don’t like that whey has an impact on insulin, but what’s the impact on metabolic health when people consume whey protein? And so there are studies that show either no effect or maybe it’s beneficial. And the reason it would probably be beneficial, me without having looked in depth at the studies, I would assume that adding whey protein would be beneficial because whey protein stimulates muscle synthesis, right just like insulin does but the protein in way and the impact on insulin is a potent stimulator of protein muscle synthesis okay so when you have more muscle that’s going to positively impact your metabolic health especially if you’re strength training, further adding more protein in people who are largely protein deficient because most people are not getting enough protein i mean now maybe they are because protein has become a marketing thing. People are tending not to get enough protein because the guidelines were always to get 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight, which we now know is like the minimum to prevent muscle wasting. And it’s not enough to be well muscled. And so we have this epidemic of low muscle and insulin resistance.
Speaker0: [1:08:34] So yeah, when you start adding protein to people who are protein deficient, doesn’t really even matter where the protein comes from, that’s going to have a positive effect on them, even if it’s stimulating their insulin, because they’re probably stimulating their insulin anyways, if they’re eating like a high starch diet, and then maybe they’re not eating as much starch, because they’re full now, they’re eating protein, so a whole bunch of things. The thing with nutritional science is it is not reductionistic by definition. It’s very, very hard to just change something and get an effect. Like when you have a drug trial, you know nobody starting off a drug trial has taken or ever seen this drug before and then you take half of the participants and you give them the drug and the other half you give a blind placebo right so if there’s an effect you know it’s probably because of the drug especially if it happens to the group that got the drug and not the group that didn’t but when you give even if you’re doing a randomized control trial when you give one group whey protein and the other group let’s say i don’t know just like, I don’t know, a placebo powder, like if they’re deficient in protein, that’s going to have an effect and it’s going to change a whole bunch of stuff. And then adding more protein, which is something that our body requires, it’s not a drug that’s like a novel thing added to your body. It’s like, you know, you’re getting something that has a physiological effect on a lot of different body systems, impacts your behaviors in the way that you eat, and impacts the macronutrient.
Speaker0: [1:10:00] Makeup of your food because you’re getting protein, right? So, you’re getting extra protein. So, a whole bunch of things happen when you add whey protein. So, I don’t know if it’s fair to say, like, I appreciate knowing that whey protein stimulates insulin because I would rather consume hemp protein or pea protein or a type of protein powder that doesn’t impact my insulin levels because I don’t want to spike my insulin. You know, but after a hard workout, if I really want to like, get jacked, I might do whey protein with like, you know, glucose, to be honest, and get a huge insulin spike, but put that insulin to work building muscle. So there’s a time and a place for it. But what we do know is that so Dr. Ali Chavez kind of like, you know, you don’t need that much protein. But there is quite a bit of research around the importance of protein. So, you know, 30 to 50 grams of protein per meal. And again, you don’t need 50 grams at a meal, but 30 is great. Stimulates muscle protein synthesis, and that supports our metabolic health. It regulates our blood sugar, partly yes, because it does impact our insulin. But if you’re having just animal protein, it’s not having a huge impact on insulin levels.
Speaker0: [1:11:15] And, you know, the more muscle we have on our body, the more longevity we have, you know, the less our risk of dying from anything. Muscle is a glucose sink, so it soaks up glucose at rest, but really goes into overdrive at soaking up glucose when you’ve just worked out. And in fact, you don’t need insulin to bring your glucose down when your muscles are working. So this is the advice where you take a walk after dinner, you start working your muscles and you don’t eat even insulin to get the glucose into the muscles and store it as muscle glycogen. Further, we store about 400 grams of carbohydrate as muscle glycogen. It’s a huge like reservoir of glucose that doesn’t have to go into fat cells, doesn’t have to overstuff them. So the more muscle you have, the better glucose sink you have. And then you have this quick burning energy.
Speaker0: [1:12:08] So the more muscle you have the better and you need protein to you need two things to stimulate it when you’re at an adult you need um protein so lysine specifically branching amino acid and you need resistance training so you need to like have a stimulus on your muscle to to create muscle um and we know there’s lots and lots of studies on protein forward diets so diets that deliver about 0.8 to one gram per pound, not kilogram of ideal body weight per day. So it’s almost double the previous recommendations of 0.8 grams per kilogram. So we’re saying 0.8 to one gram per pound. I just aim for one gram per pound of body weight. And so if you distribute that over the course of a day, a course of across three meals, then maybe, yeah, if my ideal weight is 150 pounds, and I’m trying to stimulate muscle and decrease body fat, then yeah, I’m probably aiming for about 50 grams per meal.
Speaker0: [1:13:11] You know, there’s studies shown by Dr. Cabot-Leon that are like not new studies from the early 2000s, where when, you know, people had like a bigger protein breakfast, a decent protein lunch, a decent protein dinner, versus a group that had like a really crappy low-protein breakfast, and their biggest meal was dinner, they lost more body fat, lost less lean mass when they were engaging calorie restriction. And there, you know, there’s another study that shows, you know, low-protein diet, low-protein plus exercise, high-protein diet, high-protein plus exercise. And the best group, of course, was high-protein and exercise, but the second best was high-protein.
Speaker0: [1:13:54] In terms of body fat lost and lean mass preserved. So a lot of benefits to having protein. Does that mean go eat like protein cereal? Honestly, like my answer to the memes where it’s like, I’m working overtime trying to get enough protein. My answer to that is like, just eat meat. Just eat meat. We’re so scared of meat. If you eat meat, chicken, fish, eggs, you’ll get enough protein if you eat like a decent serving you know a five ounce serving at every meal or if you’re tofu and edamame those are great too and you can also do hemp protein powder or collagen powder um it’s collagen is not a complete protein but who cares when you’re mixing it up with other you don’t need to worry about complete protein when you’re getting complete protein across your day in my opinion um so yeah when you’re doing a low insulin lifestyle because really all you have is like animal foods and fruit and vegetable you’re naturally probably going to eat more protein because what are you going to put in your burrito bowl um you can’t put rice in there can’t put tortilla so you’re going to probably put a lot of ground beef uh maybe you’re going to put um a bunch of different salad ingredients avocado and yeah so the savory the salty is going to come from the ground beef and so then you’re getting enough protein.
Speaker0: [1:15:13] And you know people always ask about people are scared of animal protein and i think it’s because of this, again, all the brainwashing and gaslighting that we’ve had from the 1970s on about having a high-carb diet and not eating animal. And the fact is, our diet is largely plant-based in North America. And it’s, that’s not, turns out, plant-based isn’t the right heuristic for a healthy diet. A plant-based diet that’s like made of whole foods, sure, that could be good for you. Um but it’s probably going to be heavier on starch and if it’s not then you have a very limited amount of protein foods to draw from so yeah it is possible to do a low insulin lifestyle on a vegetarian or vegan diet it’s just your your protein sources are going to be very very limited and then maybe yeah you should definitely be doing hemp protein powders and things like that if you want to try it um but fun fact is somebody who i was really like watching.
Speaker0: [1:16:10] What’s her name it’s a health influencer that is like a fruititarian so all she consumes is or like raw raw fully raw christina so she has these beautiful like platters of fruit she gets to eat all this food because all she so she is doing a low insulin lifestyle vegans vegan version lots of nuts and seeds and fruits and vegetables so uh she’s just not eating any animal product and she’s surviving but I think she started adding protein powder in recently um so yeah so very interesting um.
Speaker0: [1:16:44] You know, kind of debate that happened. But I think that, you know, we definitely want to eat enough protein. And I, you know, in my course, I suggest, you know, starting with protein first, because the thing with that is, you know, it’s less about restriction, which can be really helpful, especially if you, so if you struggle with insulin resistance, chances are you’ve done a diet before, you know, because if you have difficulty losing weight, you’ve probably tried something to try and lose weight, whether it was fasting, whether it was Weight Watchers, whether it was something. So you’ve done restriction before, you’ve counted calories, you’ve tracked your macros, you’ve done something like that. So telling you to eat less of something, I mean, yeah, that’s helpful, especially if it’s like don’t eat any starch, particularly if you have really strong insulin resistance.
Speaker0: [1:17:36] But, you know, I like to suggest protein forward first, because it feels less restrictive, you’re focused on eating something, you can always eat it at the end of the day if you you know weren’t focused like you can always have like a protein smoothie or something at the end of the day or a steak if you’re like i didn’t i didn’t you know follow it today or had a busy day versus like having to reverse, overeating or eating something that you weren’t allowed to so it has this, positive frame. And it will displace other macronutrients in other foods. You feel more satiate, your blood sugar is more stable, your brain has, you know, more continuous glucose control. It increases tyrosine, which increases dopamine, which supports motivation, reduces cravings, supports executive functioning. There’s all these positive benefits to adding protein. and so it’s not the only thing it’s not just protein and nothing else it’s just my first step often when patients come in and we need to start working on lifestyle foundations, lifestyle foundations are it’s hard to get someone to do big changes right away.
Speaker0: [1:18:47] Um in my course too we talk about like what happens when you have to eat out what happens when you go to someone’s house what happens how do you say no to people who offer you their pecan pie you know so there’s a lot but if your if your goal their first goal is just to increase protein it’s like you can hand you can navigate all of that stuff you know you just focus on protein and just see what changes and that’s like a good way to start thinking about food and tracking food and not thinking about restriction and then you’re not hungry so you don’t have that same association of like i’m gonna do a thing to be healthy and it’s gonna result in me being, frigging hungry, which was my association my entire life. So on the low insulin list, I don’t find that I’m hungry, actually, I’m very satiated. But, you know, it can be something to wrap your head around to be like, I can’t have starch. So what’s starch in? And what can I eat? And what’s the list? And what’s the grocery? So what am I going to, how am I going to have tortillas? How am I going to do this? So Dr. Ali Chavali uses a lot of almond flour. But yeah, so I think protein has a very important place in supporting metabolic health.
Speaker0: [1:19:49] Now putting it all together um you know so i think when a patient comes in the first thing is we do an assessment we may do some testing and we come up with an individualized plan right so, yeah you can take this and run with it you can just google the foods but again it’s like no starch no sugar no unfermented dairy and then you can have you know all the fruits and vegetables all the animal protein. I will say that a patient that I saw recently, you know, she was like, she’s like, I’m going through perimenopause. I have brain fog. I have no energy. I’ve got all of these symptoms. I’m gaining weight and I can’t lose it. I just, I feel like garbage. My mental health is terrible. And I just, I want to, you know, rehaul my health. And so we talked with the low insulin lifestyle because she had other signs of insulin resistance.
Speaker0: [1:20:46] We didn’t measure insulin, but we definitely have a plan to do that. Cost is a factor in terms of blood testing. And we want to just test everything together. So she already had a lot of signs of insulin resistance. She had high triglycerides, low HDL or good cholesterol, some inflammatory markers, and actually was starting to get elevated hemoglobin A1C or blood sugar was starting to go up. So it was kind of in the at-risk range. So, okay, we, you know, we don’t have a baseline insulin test, but let’s go ahead with, you know, treating insulin resistance. So, I recommended low insulin lifestyle. She was already doing lots of strength training, had a good exercise routine. And she came back and she’s like, I feel amazing. Within three days, everything transformed. My symptoms are all better. What are you eating? And she’s like, well, I’m eating quinoa every day and I’m eating lentils every day.
Speaker0: [1:21:38] So, and I’m eating chickpeas. so you don’t have to be perfect in other words is that um you know so there’s an individualized approach i didn’t have the heart to tell her that those foods were not didn’t belong on the plan but if it’s working why be more restrictive right if you can have there’s lots of benefits to having lentils lentils have iron they have fiber they have there’s another protein source quinoa it creates variety you’re allowed you feel better because you can eat these different foods you can replace rice with it.
Speaker0: [1:22:08] You know, I like this lentil flatbread that I make. So if you don’t need to be that restrictive, if you don’t need to do zero starch, then great. So we’re looking kind of at an individualized plan. Like, what are you already eating? How can we tweak things? Maybe we start with more protein. Maybe we start removing some starches. Maybe it’s just sugar that we deal with. Maybe we say, you know what, don’t worry about fruit. Eat all the fruit you want. In fact, when you eat fruit, it’s helping address a sugar craving and then you’re craving candy less and you’re having less binges. We’re looking at the individual and we’re bringing all the features together. So yes, you can just try a diet on your own. That’s great. But I am always concerned that it just becomes another diet that we try. And then we meet the same internal or external obstacles and we feel bad about ourselves and that triggers that shame and that triggers that that feeling of defeat and you cheat on it and you don’t have someone to help you reframe that that it’s not a cheat it’s just like okay like whatever you know so you know how do we approach this individually is is always so important um i think my face is covering it but essentially the low insulin lifestyle is no starch and sugar you know increasing protein fat and fiber and strength training two to three times a week so adding in strength training supporting muscle building.
Speaker0: [1:23:34] That’s very important, right, is building that muscle. There’s a whole section on muscle and exercise in my insulin resistance course. Diet, yes, is really important, but it only has one, it’s only one core, like one part of the course. And then a huge part of my course is on stress management and like regular movement, lifestyle, like, you know, stuff that supports your mental health. Again, it’s like, yeah, insulin resistance is good for your mental, healthy insulin levels supports your mental health but supporting your mental health like with these self-care practices like for me it’s getting out in nature practicing hobbies socializing reducing your stress getting to sleep on time sleep support um all of that is also good for your stress levels which is good for your insulin levels so you can like reverse these vicious cycles you lower your inflammation, maybe there’s certain supplements that can help right if you’re not sleeping supplements for sleep, if you have sugar cravings, there are supplements that can support that. Supplements for muscle health.
Speaker0: [1:24:37] Again, I say this in my course too. I mean, interestingly, I’m a huge advocate for lifestyle. I think it’s lifestyle really that is going to have the biggest impact on our health. And a lot of it requires a little bit of an entire reframe, right? Especially if we’re living in a chronic disease state, like insulin resistance, and especially if it’s been longstanding, then yeah there’s a lot of connections and associations and identity patterns even that need to change and that’s scary and that’s huge and because we’re social creatures and we’re we’re not just biological creatures we’re social and we don’t like eat in isolation and we are a product of you know the people around us and how they and how healthy they are and how they behave that just going on of, you know, changing your lifestyle, not that easy. It’s an entire identity shift oftentimes. It’s huge habit change, you know. So supplements often are a way to get people’s nutrient levels up where they feel better, where their body works better. And that can be positive motivation for and physical energy, you know.
Speaker0: [1:25:51] Positive mental and emotional and physical energy and motivation to make some changes, you know, whether it’s going for walks, because now you’re not so exhausted, because you slept better, or you just, your adrenals are functioning better, your brain is functioning better. So now you can make decisions like going for a walk after dinner, and now you can eat more protein, that makes you feel better. And then you think, well, okay, nothing, you know, I still would like to, I still have visceral fat, I’m still experiencing X, Y, and Z symptoms, So maybe I’ll consider now reducing my starch or taking out starches, right? So there’s so many approaches and ways in, you know?
Speaker0: [1:26:29] And I think in a huge part of my course was around self-compassion and shame and addressing obstacles, you know, so individually, what is helpful to you? Where do you start on the journey? Like, what’s important for you? What is your blood work say? What is, you know, waist circumference, all these different things? Like, what’s your starting point? What do you already do that’s working for you? What are you doing that might not be working for you? And a lot of it, you don’t know, right? Like, a lot of it is we don’t know. And there’s so much confusion in the nutritional space and you know protein no protein starch no starch bananas no bananas can I eat fruit can I not what about nuts what about seeds what’s this portion oh it’s just about your macros actually it doesn’t matter just calories in calories out.
Speaker0: [1:27:13] There’s so much and so all of that could be true for a specific person right maybe for one person it is calories that’s the thing now you know you’ve done you know all of these different things and that’s where you’re stuck. It really actually may be we need to just track calories, you know? It’s probably not the majority of people, but I, you know, it could be that person. But maybe that person’s not interested in tracking calories, that that’s highly triggering, unpleasant.
Speaker0: [1:27:40] Like if you’re like me, you don’t want anything to do with that anymore. So what else could we try? You know, do you do better by just saying, okay, like, again, I’m talking about myself, no starch, no sugar, you know, no way. Okay, perfect. Just tell me what I can’t eat and I won’t eat it and that’s fine. Um, so, you know, what works for the person? Um, or is it like, you know, your nutrition is dialed in, but you don’t move and that’s what we need to work on.
Speaker0: [1:28:07] Or is it a case of, you know, again, nutrient deficiencies are big. Um, I see them a lot in my practice and they will be an obstacle to feeling better, you know, um, zinc deficiencies or B6 deficiencies or, you know. So, yeah, so there’s an entirely holistic approach, essentially, in which we’re addressing things.
Speaker0: [1:28:35] And yeah, so that’s it, everyone. So if you have questions, reach out, connect at tallyandeed.com. If you’re following on YouTube, like and subscribe, please. I have lots of ideas. I have lots of plans. And I think, you know, subscribers, questions, engagement would really help me with the execution. I’m happy that I released this. I’ve been thinking about this for a while. April has been quite the month. It’s been terrible, quite frankly. But the foundation of low-insulin lifestyle and movement have actually been very helpful for me, keeping me afloat.
Speaker0: [1:29:16] So I think that’s, you know, I can say that when put into practice, it works. It’s possible to, at your lowest point, follow this lifestyle, and it helps, you know. And again, these are all things that I like to work with people on. You know, if you’re at your lowest point, like what’s the minimum that you can do? Like how do we get you out of it? How do we help you out of rock bottom? You know? And then, and this is a huge thing in psychotherapy is like people often come in with a rock bottom kind of chronic problem that distracts them from the deeper work that they want to actually do. Like, you know, examining childhood patterns and, you know, our schemas, things that we, you know, we have like our kind of chronic surface problem so that we don’t go into the deeper traumas that, you know, influence us and keep us stuck. So a lot of cool stuff. I know the economy is scary, but if you have benefits in Ontario, in Quebec.
Speaker0: [1:30:23] And I believe Nova Scotia for psychotherapy. Yeah, reach out. I am offering naturopathic medicine and psychotherapy in Ontario and other provinces that my psychotherapy license is good in. And yeah, I would love to work with you. If you have benefits, use them because this is how we get out of tough times is with support and help. And, yeah, I know that, yeah, it’s scary to spend money, but if you have it covered, I would suggest going for it. I’d love to help. Yeah. Like I said, I’m going to look into offering membership and a course, like a very holistic course. I released one back in 2020, I think, called Good Mood Foundations. And so I’m looking at making Good Mood Foundations 2.0. And this Good Mood Foundations is going to have sections on nervous system regulation, self-compassion, attentiveness and observation when it comes to our body, as well as nutrition, lifestyle. We’re going to talk about the microbiome. We’re going to talk about hormones and menopause. Like, it’s going to be truly holistic.
Speaker0: [1:31:42] And, you know, it’s my way of allowing you to access this information and walking you kind of through my brain for a very low price if you don’t have coverage. Or just if you need support. You need, like, more information. You like to digest more information. you know it’s hard to get it all from just one-to-one sessions because we have limited time together so you get that individual support where we’re like really getting into the nitty gritty but maybe you want kind of the overview that you can consume on your own and maybe you want a community so you know give me suggestions i run my courses right now from thrive cart um i would love to get like a community membership thing going so we’ll talk more about that soon, and I’m going to be writing a lot more. So yeah, make sure that you’re in my email list because that’s where I’m going to reach out to you about new things that are coming up and writings and things like that. So thank you for listening. Let me know your questions and comments, you know, leave a comment below or reach out at connect at taliand.com. If you live in Ontario, I’d love to work with you. Take care, everybody.
I wanted to share a recent story about my experience with the Carnivore Diet and Low Insulin Lifestyle. Maybe it’s because I just finished watching Netflix’s Apple Cider Vinegar, but sharing my health experience feels strange: very health-influencer-esque. There is some mention of weight and weight loss and some mention of body image and my relationship with food, but that’s not really what the story is about: it’s about insulin. I know I’ve shared things of this nature before, and sometimes, weaving stories can add some humanity to what might otherwise be a cold and clinical onslaught of health information.
So, if you find the idea of reading about me intriguing or even entertaining, read on. As usual, remember that this is my experience and can’t be extrapolated to everyone. Let’s talk in a clinical setting if you read something that resonates with your experience and want to learn how it might fit your health history and goals.
Last summer, something shifted in my health. Maybe it’s the same thing that happens to most women around this age (late 30s), i.e., the catch-all explanation-replacement for “it’s just stress”-perimenopause. Maybe there was a shift in how I was taking care of myself, although it felt like I was staying on top of everything. I walked a lot, went outside, and ate fruits, vegetables, and protein. But something still felt off.
And the thing that felt “off” was what so many patients often complain about. I felt… well, I had gained some weight, and not just physical weight. I felt mentally and spiritually heavy. The weight seemed to pile on out of nowhere. I shun the scale and rarely weigh myself, but one day, I did. The jump in number was so big in such a short time that my judgey scale asked if I was the same person who had weighed in 3 months before. Wow. Nice…
The heaviness wasn’t without its causes. That Spring, I finished my Masters of Counselling Psychology–a long, almost three-year slog. Shortly after, my 15-year-old dog, Coco, stopped eating for four days. He was diagnosed with protein-losing enteropathy and put on a daily dose of liquid prednisone, a steroid. Coco has been with me from the start of all this, when I first filled out applications to attend naturopathic college. He slept beside me during late nights of studying. He came with me to my exams. The sleepless nights, the decision-making, weighing the responsibility of senior pet ownership–when to intervene medically, when to decide to end his suffering, of course, the sheer financial cost– was a lot to grapple with and went on for months. It’s still going on, to be frank.
That summer, my Nonna passed away a few weeks before her 97th birthday.
I wondered if it was grief, or stress, or even steroids getting on my skin, but I felt puffy. I was tired. I felt sluggish and less stress resilient. I was still active but doing more sedentary activities: reading and learning guitar.
Weight and digestive issues have been a struggle my entire life. The “healing journey” has led me on some valid paths: exploring food sensitivities and gluten-free living, nutritional support through supplements and nutrient-dense foods, meditation and mindfulness, adrenal support and herbal medicine, and prioritizing rest and mental health.
But, regarding nutrition, I felt I was doing everything I could. I didn’t want to go down the road of caloric restriction. I didn’t want to deprive my body or fight its process. Sometimes, weight is protection. Sometimes, we need a warm, heavy blanket. Sometimes, we need to slow down.
So, I did. Of course, I was tempted by thoughts of how to solve the weight gain by dieting, as so many of us have been programmed to do. I even recorded a podcast about retraining myself to value and preserve my muscle mass rather than trying to become smaller. I accepted this new shape and focused on the tasks: my work, hanging out in nature, surfing, and healing my gut.
My gut health was terrible, although I was managing it based on all the research I had sifted through on my way to creating a gut health course. I added in more fibre and fermented foods. This worked for a time but didn’t solve the problem entirely. For most of last year, my irritable bowel syndrome was wrecking havoc. I was highly distended, often in pain.
I had brain fog and physical sluggishness. I felt stuck in a parasympathetic state. So, I sat on the couch, enjoying slow mornings, reveling in the absence of deadlines. I read books. I went for long walks. That summer, I swam in lakes and went to the Atlantic ocean.
While trying to be patient with my body, I constantly felt that I wasn’t tapping into the energy from my food. I would eat a full day’s worth of food and some stews, legumes, rice, smoothie, and salads and still feel hungry. I was constantly thinking about food. I tried to honour this by just eating more whole foods. I believe the body asks for what i needs, if we’re willing to listen. So I tried my best to listen.
Around Christmas, I was at a cafe with my boyfriend. He was eating a sandwich. Ever since naturopthic college, I have diligently avoided gluten. But I was already feeling sluggish and bloated. I was already tired. And here was a delicious, bready baguette. A delightful sandwich with soft carbs, mayo, cheese, and meat, just inviting me to sink my teeth into it. What good was avoiding gluten doing me at this moment? I avoided gluten to feel energized, healthy and light. I already wasn’t feeling that way, so eff it, how could things get worse?
I took a bite. It was divine. I let myself eat gluten for the next month. Glorious, glorious bread! I felt like my life was straight out of the pages of Eat Pray Love as I gorged on all the pasta and pastries I wanted. I chilled at Christmas parties, eating brie, bread, cakes and pies. I had all the dessert. There were no limits anymore. And, in a way, that food freedom did heal my soul. It was like a vacation from all rules and guidelines. We need this from time to time.
But, if I was barely staying afloat before then, adding in the gluten and sugar made me slip below the surface. I was insanely bloated. My weight soared. I felt sore, stiff, and clumsy. I had significant brain fog. My ankles and face were comically puffy. While I didn’t regret a second of it, after my foray into the world of gluten, I decided it was time for a reset.
After much consideration, a light switch clicked on, and I decided it was time to try the Carnivore Diet.
The premise of the Carnivore Diet is that it’s the ultimate elimination diet. It’s ketogenic, or zero carb, and contains no FODMAPS (fibre), grains, or other allergenic foods. It gives the gut a chance to reset.
While we often hear about how good fibre is for us, the truth is that some research shows that eliminating fibre can heal constipation. Emptying the gut and consuming a low-reside diet, in other words, all the components of the diet are digested and absorbed early on in the digestive tract, can give the colon a break. Further, burning ketones can heal the gut as the primary ketone, betahydroxybutryrate, is food for gut cells (we often hear about butyrate in the context of eating fibre).
Advocates of Carnivore talk about appetite control, abundant energy, healthy digestion, clear skin and effortless ease in maintaining a healthy body weight. I wanted this. I also wanted to feel more connected to my body and its energy processes. I wanted agency over my food cravings. I felt my appetite was out of control and my body needed something it wasn’t getting or couldn’t access.
Within the first 24 hours of Carnivore, my brain fog lifted. After the first week, I dropped 12 lbs . It felt like emerging from the fog into sunshine, and tossing off a heavy cloak.
I felt fully nourished for the first time in a long time. I ate a lot of fat, meat, eggs and even dairy. I felt energized. My appetite calmed down. I woke up in the morning, and instead of rushing something down my throat, I made myself a coffee and felt hunger slowly creep in.
I would prepare a big breakfast of meat and eggs that would hold me until the mid-afternoon. The food noise died down. My brain felt supercharged- I could think again. Even after long hours of talking to patients or working at the computer, I felt my brain could keep going and going and going. I no longer got that white noise static electricity that I associated with oxidative stress caused by overworking my neurons.
My mental health was better than it had ever been. I felt calm, persistent brain energy and agency over my thoughts. I felt emotionally stable and resilient. Nothing seemed to phase me. I felt strong.
I felt great. My original intention was to do the diet for a couple of weeks, but after the first week, I thought, I can do this forever! This is my diet, it’s my way of eating, something about it felt right. It was also the dead of winter. What would I be surviving on if I were in the wild right now? No fruits and vegetables were around; the ground was covered in snow. I would be hunting and killing animals and surviving on their meat. This way of eating felt aligned with the season, and I believe it was what my body needed at the time.
My brain and body thrived on the ketones. I had no cravings. Even on my birthday, I just wanted a nice ribeye steak. I couldn’t care less about cake, potatoes, or any other exciting comfort foods we look forward to on birthdays.
It was hard to sustain the diet on vacation. When I went to Ecuador in late February, I decided to let go of Carnivore and eat what was available. Because of the sun, surf, walking and relaxed vibe, I felt good in Ecuador, but my body felt far from magical. I dealt with chronic gut issues, miserable period cramps and a three-day migraine throughout my time there. On the plane ride back, I was ready to restart Carnivore and found it relatively easy to jump right back in the following day.
I hesitated to talk about my experience on Carnivore even three months into the experience. I felt great. My body felt like an efficient engine, burning fuel cleanly. However, the food was all…well, brown. And salty. And I often felt dehydrated. Also, after the initial drop in weight, I had stalled.
Grocery shopping was a strange experience. It felt surreal to be surrounded by all this… food. Stuff that wasn’t a part of my day at all. It wasn’t the snacks or chips or candy or even the carbs that tempted me. It was the rainbow of fruits and vegetables that greeted me every time I wheeled my cart into the store.
The fruits were shiny and colourful, advertising their sweet, hydrating juices and vitamins. Glycogen, or stored carbs in our muscles and liver, hold water in our bodies. On a low-carb diet, we often burn through our glycogen stores. If there was one thing I craved on Carnivore, it was the sweet hydration of juice.
One day, I was browsing Instagram and saw a comment on a popular account about glucose regulation. The account features a biochemist/influencer who shows a series of continuous glucose monitor graphs and discusses the glucose response to food. Her methods feature tips like “add fat to your carbs to lower your glucose spike.” This post highlighted how adding fat to starches (like hummus, which adds fats like olive oil and tahini to starchy chickpeas) can reduce the height of a glucose spike, helping to regulate blood sugar.
This is something I often coach my patients on, as blood sugar regulation is the key to mood stability, mental health, cognitive energy, and adrenal function, among so many other things. Interesting how I was kind of wrong about that.
The comment that caught my eye was written by a PhD who pointed out that while adding fat and carbs together can lower a glucose spike, it does not change the height and area under the curve of the insulin spike. Adding fat to starches might make the insulin response to food larger, even if it’s curbing and controlling the rise in glucose. It hit me then. We’ve been focusing on the wrong thing. I assumed glucose and insulin were like two twins on a tandem bike. One rises, and the other one joins in. Seesaw, yin and yang. But I started connecting the dots from the cases of patients I’ve seen, my experience, and third-year biochemistry. Yeesh, it’s all about insulin.
I remembered something else, too: the Insulin Index.
88-90% of humans are insulin resistant. We can’t access our fat stores or the energy from our food because we have chronically high insulin levels and unresponsive cells. Insulin’s main job (or maybe its most famous job) is to help drive glucose into shelves. You consume starch, glucose explodes onto the scene, and insulin puts it all away for you. It stores the sugar as glycogen and fat, and your body burns those later for energy.
Naturally, whatever causes a rise in blood glucose will also cause a rise in blood insulin. But sometimes, glucose isn’t rising on a continuous glucose monitor because insulin has already lept onto the scene to bring sugar down. Further, some foods, like whey protein and milk, don’t spike glucose much but will have a (significant) impact on insulin levels.
The commenter, Dr. Ali Chappell, PhD, described herself as an insulin researcher. Her research involves examining the effects of a low-insulin spiking diet on PCOS (an insulin-resistant hormonal condition that affects about 10% of women). The Low Insulin lifestyle was tested on various women who reliably lost 19 lbs in two months without counting, eating as much fruit, non-starchy vegetables, nuts and seeds and animal protein as they wanted. When I discovered Dr. Ali Chappell, I had just been hired to do a course on Insulin Resistance, which involved researching the manifestations and solutions to keeping ourselves metabolically healthy.
While a low-carb or Ketogenic diet like the carnivore diet can certainly heal metabolic dysfunction, it didn’t feel right to recommend this lifestyle to patients. It wasn’t for the faint of heart, for starters, and something in my soul was starting to miss fruit and vegetables. As part of my course research, I began to dive deeper into the low-insulin lifestyle.
Some bells started to ring for me. At the same time, my good friend was struggling on Carnivore because, while she felt great, she was breastfeeding, and the diet was affecting her milk supply. I shared with her what I learned about the Low Insulin Lifestyle. She started on the diet and, within a few days, told me her cravings and hunger were diminished. She was dropping her weight-loss-resistant belly fat like a stone.
After she had been on it for a week, I followed. I was ready to add more colour to my life. I removed the whey protein and dairy I had been eating, thinking it was fine and not realizing it was impacting my insulin. I added more fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds. I had dark chocolate again!
The variety was lovely. My gut was ready for fibre again, particularly the soft, gooey, juicy fibres from fruit. It felt good to fill my stomach with bulk. And it felt terrific to eat so many colours and textures of food.
Weight loss that had stalled for months after that initial drop on Carnivore kicked up again. My appetite chilled out, and I felt nourished again. I realized this eating pattern had been something I stumbled on from time to time: my trip to Brazil in 2020, my first forays with Paleo, even following the guidance of a microbiome test I did in 2021. However, none of these experiences involved intentionally targeting insulin. I would often eat starches like sweet potatoes or rice. I sometimes cut out fruit, with its fructose, which has a minimal impact on insulin.
This finally clicked things into place for me. It helped create a framework to encase my intuition around food and what humans should eat.
I was consuming whole, natural foods our ancestors would have consumed. Unprocessed plants and animals. Lots of healthy fats. Lots of sugar from fruit. Phytochemicals from colourful plants. Protein and nourishing fat from meat, eggs and some yogurt or cheese. I ate berries and burgers. Salads, broccoli and asparagus. I had sausages with organic tomato sauce. So many bacon and eggs breakfasts. I had nuts and seeds and pumpkin seed butter. I had dark chocolate and bananas. Pistachios. Shawarma meat and salad (hold the rice). It was easy to make decisions and figure out what to eat.
Looking back, I think glucose intolerance has plagued my whole life. It has affected my body and my relationship with food. It led to years of binge eating that only stopped if I ate more consistently. Protein helped immensely.
When things started to feel off, I consulted with a family doctor. I ordered some bloodwork through her and did some myself. My fasting insulin levels and insulin sensitivity (HOMA-IR) value were normal. However, when we eat foods spike insulin, it can cause a post-prandial (i.e., post-meal) rise in insulin that can stay elevated all day, as we go from one meal to the next. It can spike hunger and cravings, causing us to eat and continue to boost insulin. While hyperinsulinemia can lead to insulin resistance, I don’t think my body was there quite yet. I was raising my insulin levels, blocking my body’s access to energy stores and driving the hunger, inflammation and heaviness I was feeling.
Insulin sensitivity and glucose tolerance tend to shift as our hormones change through our late 30s and 40s. As estrogen and progesterone levels change, insulin levels increase, and we become more insulin resistant. This explained that shift I felt. The old patterns of diet and exercise I was engaging in weren’t working either. I needed to be more intentional with the way I was eating and exercising.
I started adding in more resistance training, scheduling in weights and high intensity interval training two to three times a week in addition to my yoga, swimming, and walks. The carbs from fruit helped fuel my muscles. I felt myself shift out of that parasympathetic shutdown state. I watched my nervous system enjoy more flexibility.
In a few weeks, I will start filming my course on insulin resistance. Then, it will go to editing. I’ll let you know when it’s time for it to be released. The course has been a gift. It allowed me the space and time to dive deep into the research and start putting various bits and pieces together. Metabolic dysfunction is the great health crisis of our age. I’m becoming more and more convinced that it drives so many of the common concerns we see in natural medicine practices: SIBO and candida overgrowth, adrenal fatigue, estrogen dominance, and chronic inflammation. There is a whole budding field of mental health called “metabolic psychiatry” that examines the role that insulin resistance has on mood and brain health.
Until proven otherwise, if a patient is dealing with high insulin, we must address this as a potential root cause that ties together all their concerns.
The medical establishment often overlooks insulin resistance, as the primary focus is on diabetes, which represents a later stage on the disease continuum. Decades of dietary advice have also set us up for metabolic inflexibility and an overabundance of dietary glucose that overworks insulin and blocks our ability to use energy for brain and body health.
The good news is that I believe the solution is simple. Eat a diet that leaves insulin alone: animal protein, nuts and seeds, fruits, non-starchy vegetables and healthy fats. Leave aside the starches (grains, legumes, root vegetables) and sugar. Add in some higher intensity training and work your muscles. With this approach, we have the start of a full-blown health revolution on our hands.
Stay tuned for more podcasts and courses on this topic in the coming months!
I am excited to introduce a new podcast episode (I know it’s been a while). I’ve been deep in the weeds of research about insulin resistance for a course I’m working on (for a health education platform that I’m very excited to tell you more about in the coming months).
I came across Dr. Ali Chappell, PhD, when researching my course. She helped hit home for me this idea that we’ve been focusing too much on blood sugar when the real focus for better metabolic health, body composition (i.e., weight management), energy and mood needs to be on INSULIN.
For years, I’ve been telling patients to “put clothes on their carbs” by adding fat and protein to higher-carb meals to regulate blood sugar. I’ve also recommended whey protein for protein powders. I didn’t realize this was the wrong approach for supporting metabolic health when someone is dealing with insulin resistance (as many of us are).
While these foods and practices DO regulate blood sugar, they don’t minimize the root of blood sugar and insulin resistance issues, which is insulin spikes.
You might have heard of the “glycemic index,” which tells us how much a food spikes blood sugar. Well, there is also something called the “insulin index.” Dr. Ali Chappell, PhD, decided to look more deeply into this concept when developing a lifestyle to treat her PCOS, an insulin resistance hormone condition, and the number one cause of infertility in women.
She found genuinely remarkable results in herself and decided to turn to science to test her theory.
In this podcast, we discuss her research done on women with insulin resistance and PCOS. These women got incredible results, losing an average of 19 lbs and reducing their fasting insulin levels by 50% in 2 months—eating all the nuts, fruit, vegetables, fat, and animal proteins they wanted. In this study, the women counted no calories, carbs, protein, or macros. They just avoided foods that spike insulin. It’s very simple.
This research has been repeated three times, and a randomized control trial is set to be published soon. In this trial, the lifestyle was tested against conventional medical advice for PCOS and insulin resistance (eat less, exercise more, and take medication).
We talk about the science of insulin resistance and how food impacts insulin, why we need to start focusing on insulin as a medical community, and how to take back your life, manage your appetite, and stop cravings—all the good things—so you can live with lower inflammation, better mood, and better energy.
We might have discussed this lifestyle plan if you’ve seen me in the past few weeks.
This podcast is a must-listen if you’re struggling with
Abdominal weight gain and difficulty losing weight
low energy
hunger and cravings
considering Ozempic or other GLP-1 medications
PCOS and other insulin-resistance conditions
Have seen high insulin, high blood sugar, or high cholesterol on your bloodwork
have hypertension, insomnia, energy crashes throughout the day, irritability
inflammatory conditions (anything that ends in “itis”)
a family history of Alzheimer’s and dementia
a family history of cardiovascular disease
…and so on and so on- everyone can benefit as 90% of us are insulin resistant, and I’m becoming more and more convinced that conditions like “adrenal fatigue” or menopausal weight gain are due to elevated insulin levels affecting our bodies’ ability to get energy and burn fat.
I’m so excited that Dr. Ali agreed to speak with me and that she was so generous with her time and information.
Speaker1: [0:02] So welcome, Dr. Ali Chappell. Thank you for meeting with me.
Speaker0: [0:06] Thank you for having me.
Speaker1: [0:07] Yeah, and how I found you, just for the audience to know, is I was on a very popular Instagram account about glucose regulation. We may not mention the name, and that shows a lot of continuous glucose monitoring. And one of the things that it highlighted was if you combine, like if you eat if you combine chickpeas with fat, you get less of a glucose spike. And I was drawn, my attention was drawn to your comment. And you had a very thorough, very interesting comment about how, I know, partly why that glucose spike is reduced is because when you combine starches and fats together, you get this big insulin spike, which is lowering your glucose. And it, you know, as a naturopathic doctor, you know, I think, you know, we pay a lot of attention to insulin resistance, we pay a lot of attention to blood sugar, glucose, metabolic health, but there’s something about how the medical community and even natural health doctors tend to frame everything about glucose, you know, and this is a very popular Instagram account. Everyone loves it. It’s like all about how to lower your glucose. And we forget that it’s actually insulin that we’re trying to regulate. And so then I started following you, you know, read your book, read your research. And so I’m really excited to have you on.
Speaker0: [1:25] It’s my favorite topic.
Speaker1: [1:26] Yeah.
Speaker0: [1:27] I, Sometimes I get a little frustrated when I scroll through Instagram because it is this very glucose-centric, but that’s not just Instagram, that’s the medical community as well. So I think we’re turning a page and I think we’re moving in the right direction from a medical perspective, but we’re not there yet completely.
Speaker1: [1:47] Yeah, like we’re hearing the word insulin mentioned more, but it’s still all about glucose. And so maybe we can start by you explaining a little bit about, you know, blood sugar, insulin resistance and insulin, you know, and I mean, I told you in the email and in our communication that my audience knows, they have a bit of a background about insulin resistance, but it’s always helpful to hear it again. And also for newcomers that are just joining, it would be helpful for them to hear a bit of an explanation.
Speaker0: [2:14] Yeah. Well, maybe I’ll start with how did I even get into this, right?
Speaker0: [2:19] And where did Um, you know, I have PCOS. I started having symptoms at 14, just a lot of weight gain and acne. And at 21, uh, and I had one period a year. Um, and at 21, I was studying to be a dietitian, never heard of PCOS. I went to the on-campus clinic and a women’s health nurse practitioner diagnosed me and basically said, well, you need to lose weight, which every dietitian loves to hear.
Speaker0: [2:46] And that, you know, I need to watch my weight. And, you know, here’s a brochure and a pat on the back and here’s some of my pentacle pills. And that was, that was it. And I was like, how does my diet and my ovaries have anything to do with each other? Like I literally am about to graduate with a bachelor’s in nutrition. I’ve never heard of PCOS. So that really where I started researching this and was like, it has all to do with insulin resistance. And at that point, the only thing I knew about insulin was, you give it to diabetics to lower their blood sugar. That was all I knew. So it was understanding really how insulin is the driving factor of PCOS. So then I thought, okay, well, what raises your insulin levels? And that really led me down this journey of, well, okay, so there are certain foods that raise insulin, even if they don’t raise blood glucose. And what does that mean? And what are those foods? And that is really what started this journey. So, you know, I incorporated this kind of what low insulin diet, although I just don’t like the word diet. It’s kind of a four-letter letter word, especially because I struggled with binge eating for so long because of PCOS and because I couldn’t lose weight. So I called it a low insulin lifestyle.
Speaker0: [3:52] And that really started the journey. It worked, you know, it was amazing results for myself, you know, with acne and, you know, helping me lose weight. And so that’s when my PhD advisor was like, well, why don’t you just do a study
Speaker0: [4:05] and see if it works for other people? And so, you know, I was very lucky. I got grant from the Laura W. Bush Institute for Women’s Health Research, you know, a prestigious research scholar grant for $25,000, which allowed me to kind of start the study. And that really, the results were, you know, better than I could have expected. I was working with a reproductive endocrinologist, and she was sending only all of her patients. And so that really led down this journey. So now we’ve been, we’ve done three studies now, a randomized control trial. And So here’s what that is kind of what’s launched this whole low insulin lifestyle and all the data to support it. But, you know, I think when you start with understanding that over the past several decades, more than that, probably.
Speaker0: [4:52] Medical establishment focuses on glucose, and they don’t really care about how you lower glucose. They just want glucose within a normal range. And so that has led to the development of many, many drugs, pharmaceutical drugs, that stimulate the pancreas to make more insulin, right, in an effort to lower blood glucose. And once that patient’s glucose is in the normal range, they get a glurine check, and they’re off on their way, and they’re healthy.
Speaker0: [5:19] But the problem with that is that so many people, their pancreas is just overworking so hard to keep that blood glucose in the normal range that there’s a class of medications I’m sure you’re familiar with called sulfonylureas, and they stimulate the pancreas to make insulin. And yes, the glucose levels normalize, but the long-term side effects of these medications are pancreatic cancer and worsened insulin resistance. Because when you’re raising insulin levels in the blood, you’re going to have worse health outcomes. And so we’re now beginning to realize that it wasn’t ever the glucose that was the problem. It’s always been the insulin.
Speaker0: [5:58] And so I try to explain it as, imagine you hire somebody to fix your foundation of your home. And they come in and all they do is patch the cracks in the wall, right? And they fix the cracks. So you don’t see the foundation, you know, the cracks anymore. And you’re like, they’re like, all right, it’s fixed. And you’re like, did you really fix it or did you just fix the symptom? Because that’s the problem. Glucose imbalance is a symptom of an insulin problem. And so I think now, finally, we’re starting to really turn the page and say, well, you know, if I’m not measuring insulin, then how do you really have the full picture of what’s going on in the background to make that blood sugar go well? Does that make sense?
Speaker1: [6:42] Yeah. Yes, definitely. Yeah, it’s infuriating, as you said. I mean, people will have all the symptoms, which I’m sure we’ll talk about, of high insulin, insulin resistance, but their blood sugar will be normal, even ideal. Their HbA1c will be ideal. And then it’s like, okay. So often what I have to do when people bring in blood work if we’re not ordering it ourselves is like kind of look peripherally at the signs and symptoms like, oh, you have high triglycerides, you have low HDL. Oh, you’ve noticed weight gain, you’re not sleeping. So it’s looking at kind of all around it when we could just directly measure insulin. It’s not very expensive.
Speaker0: [7:18] It’s not, but you know, there’s some problems with that. So historically it was using what are called immunoassays, which are We’re not always very consistent, but now we’re using mass spectometry, which is very consistent, very accurate. So a lot of the providers and the things, why the reason that measuring insulin isn’t in standard practice guidelines is because they say that the results are not necessarily always accurate, and so they don’t want to test that. That’s not true anymore, right? We have devices that can measure hormones in urine using your phone. And you’re telling it, we can measure insulin accurately in the blood.
Speaker0: [7:58] The second problem is that we haven’t developed standard normal ranges. Okay, so if you go and get your insulin tested today, whether it’s through Quest or wherever, all of them are going to have a different range of normal and they’re all wildly inaccurate. So they’ll say that anything between 3 and 30 micro units per milliliter are normal. Like anything over eight is considered to be too high. And some even say even above six is too high, but eight is as a more well accepted, you know, they’ve been, they’ve done some studies looking at this and over eight really is where you, it sets you up for, you know, problems. So for somebody, I’ve had plenty of people say, well, I have all these symptoms, but I’m not insulin resistant. And I’ll say, well, did you get your insulin tested? And they said, yeah, it was 22. I’m like, well, that’s three times higher than it needs to be, you know, but we don’t have the standard normal ranges. So until we have mass awareness that testing insulin is important, normal ranges so that people actually know what is and is not considered a problem, then I think we just, and also just the general education of the healthcare community that measuring insulin is the other part of the conversation and even a bigger and more important part than just glucose um because otherwise people are just walking into a house and you know assessing the foundation by whether or not there’s cracks in the walls and that’s just not how you do it.
Speaker1: [9:27] Yeah and i think too um knowing how to treat it right because a lot of people and and also for the canadians eight uh is about 42 or 50 in the standard units so people looking at their blood ever being like that.
Speaker1: [9:45] But still, you know, the ranges in the SI units go up to 300. And I have seen people over that range, but not commonly. But often people will have a HOMA IR value that is abnormal. So it’s a little bit more nuanced and helpful, which is a calculation with fasting glucose, fasting insulin. But another part is just knowing how to treat it because people are told like, well, you’re already eating well, very general term, and moving. So let’s just watch and wait until you have type 2 diabetes, and then we’ll give you drugs for it, basically.
Speaker0: [10:22] That’s absolutely what’s happening. And that’s where really the issue is. And what I’m trying to do is that the standard nutrition recommendations don’t really work for insulin resistance, because they’re not focused on minimizing insulin spikes. So I’d always like to use this like an orange with thumbtacks. I don’t know if you saw that post on my profile.
Speaker1: [10:49] Yeah, that was good.
Speaker0: [10:50] Yeah, I thought I.
Speaker1: [10:50] Was stealing your idea from my course I’m doing. It’s a great vision.
Speaker0: [10:54] The more education gets out there, the better. So, you know, I kind of show this orange with these thumbtacks. And I say, well, this is a cell. And these thumbtacks are your insulin receptors. And when you eat foods that spike insulin, and I’m gonna say insulin, not glucose, although sometimes they’re together and sometimes they’re not, but we’ll talk about that later, is that when you eat foods that cause these insulin spikes.
Speaker0: [11:16] Those receptors become overwhelmed with all the insulin in circulation, and they start basically saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, I’m overwhelmed. I’m going to start removing these receptors from my surface. And when that happens, there are fewer receptors where insulin can bind and pull glucose in because the only way they get glucose out of the blood is to have insulin bind to a receptor and it pulls the glucose into the cell. Well, if you have less receptors, then you have less ability to get glucose from the blood.
Speaker0: [11:45] Well, pancreas then says, hey, wait, there’s too much sugar in the blood. We can’t have all this sugar in the blood. So it sends out more insulin. And that kind of starts this vicious cycle. So now you’ve got the pancreas compensating for these reduced number of receptors, which then makes more receptors disappear. And here you are eating every two hours foods that are causing more insulin spikes. And it really causes this huge vicious cycle because more insulin in the blood means more of the food you’re eating is going to be stored as fat as compared to used. And it also means your metabolism is going to slow because your brain says, whoa, my cells are starving. We don’t get enough glucose. I don’t know where my next meal is coming. I’m going to slow everything down so that we don’t have to start burning muscle for energy. And that’s when you go take naps. And that’s when you have chronic fatigue. So all of it really starts with what you’re eating and whether it’s spiking your insulin, because that is the stimulus that gets the snowball rolling.
Speaker0: [12:50] And then, you know, at that point, the problem that most people find is that they will have all these symptoms. And like you said, their glucose will be normal because your pancreas is still able to secrete enough insulin. It just… It just can’t get the job done. It can keep the blood glucose level stable for long enough, but eventually it starts to get out of hand. I think of like the I Love Lucy episode. I’m dating myself. But, you know, when they’re in the chocolate factory and they’re like, oh, this is okay. Like, we’re good. And then the machine like starts going and they’re like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I can’t keep up to date. But that’s basically like your blood sugar, essentially, where it starts to
Speaker0: [13:32] get too out of control and they no longer can get it managed. The pancreas can’t manage it. So I hope that I like to give these visuals so that we understand like what’s happening below the surface.
Speaker1: [13:42] Yeah, I often use the like beach ball. It’s like, OK, your beach ball, you’re pushing it down. But the more buoyant it is, the harder you have to push. So the amount of insulin is telling us how hard are basically is your pancreas working to keep your blood sugar where it is. So your HbA1c is, let’s say, 5 percent or your fasting glucose is 5. These are the Canadian units, which is normal, which is ideal. But there’s two people with the same blood sugar. One may have really high insulin pressing down on that fasting glucose and someone else may have low insulin. So their cells are a lot more sensitive. And so it’s like only when you can no longer suppress it, then you start to see rises in blood sugar. And then you start to, you know, have your doctor call you in to say, hey, you’ve pre-diabetes, you know.
Speaker0: [14:29] Yes. I think that’s the other thing. I wish that the diabetes community would come up with different terms for the different types of type 2 diabetes, right? Because if you’re just measuring a glucose, well, you don’t know if that person’s making so much insulin, it’s just not working very well. Or if their pancreas is, I call it a lazy pancreas, if you saw in my book, right? Or they have a lazy pancreas. So, you know, I think there’s quite a bit of people now talking about these very thin people who say, I’ve always struggled to gain weight. I’ve never been able, I’ve never had to struggle with my weight, but now I’m pre-diabetic. What’s going on? Well, and that also is kind of, and I talked about how you can’t look at other people and say, well, look, they, you know, Asian people eat all this rice and they’re very skinny. And how can they get away with it? It must be good for you. Oh, they have a definite, a very different metabolism. They can’t make enough insulin, right? They’re not going to gain weight no matter what they do. So, you know, it’s just, it’s like we need a type A, a type 2A and a type 2B.
Speaker1: [15:29] Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, it should be called different things ultimately because it’s, yeah. I mean, one of the things I was seeing in practice, not so often, but my type 2 diabetic patients were being prescribed insulin, which is wild, right? Because you’re getting more of the thing that’s driving the disease process is very short-term, short-sighted thinking based on a paradigm that’s not, the whole paradigm is shifted off of what’s actually true, which is weird. Because it’s not that hard to just shift it to more accurate, which is what you’re doing.
Speaker0: [16:04] And even if you have, let’s say you have a lazy pancreas, right? You can’t make enough insulin to keep up with the food that you’re eating. Giving them a medication like a sulfonylurea to just force that poor little overworked, you know, pancreas to make even more insulin is like kicking a dog while it’s down. Like it can’t keep up. And now you’re going to force it to make more. And all that’s doing is going to lead to beta cell failure. And then they are going to have to take insulin because their pancreas is going to be so worn out, it can’t function anymore. And that does happen to the other group too, right? I mean, eventually their pancreas is like, I’m retiring. I’m done. I’ve been overworked for so many years. I’m just not, I’m just, I’m just done. And then they then become. So I wish that we could get to a point where diabetes management is insulin management and not glucose management. But there’s just a lot of education that would have to be done, I think.
Speaker1: [16:58] Yeah. And I think, you know, you were coming at it from your own experience, which is having PCOS, which for anyone listening, if you don’t know, polycystic ovarian syndrome, which is a condition of insulin resistance. But it’s often not framed that way or treated that way. I mean, one of the therapies is metformin, which is a diabetes drug. But, you know, people are also prescribed, like, testosterone blockers and anti-androgens and birth control to regulate the period, which, you know.
Speaker1: [17:31] But, yeah, and I think, yeah, a lot of conditions that are not being flagged as being insulin-resistant conditions, you know, and again, this is kind of more of that same problem. And how insulin resistance can affect you know aside from sort of diabetes it has all of these other symptoms in the body potentially Alzheimer’s weight gain and these changes in in menopause and perimenopause that can increase insulin levels that can contribute to all these symptoms that people notice like I’m having difficulty sleeping you know I’m irritable my I’m noticing all this weight gain and I haven’t changed my diet or I haven’t changed my exercise and all these really frustrating symptoms that people are just left to deal with on their own. And they’re told to exercise and diet more, which is difficult because as you mentioned, you’re fatigued, you have all these cravings, your blood sugar’s cycling, your insulin is spiking and it’s making you starving and tired. And so, yeah, we’re sort of missing a huge opportunity to treat people.
Speaker0: [18:38] You know, if, first of all, insulin resistance affects 89% of U.S. Adults, but just as many, you know, abroad as well, as well as children, you know, insulin resistance really starts in the womb.
Speaker0: [18:52] So before a mom even gets pregnant, they’ve done studies where they can take
Speaker0: [18:56] insulin in a mom before she even conceives. And it will predict whether her female child would have early puberty because when they have too much insulin over the course of pregnancy, and pregnancy is a natural state of insulin resistance because insulin resistance helps you store fat and it helps you grow. And so insulin resistance is super important in pregnancy. But if you already had too high before you even got pregnant, then you’re even higher. And that leads to the baby to have genetic changes that leads them to over-secrete insulin. And your breast milk, because milk has insulin in it, it’s what helps cause insulin resistance in a newborn baby because insulin resistance is important in newborn babies because what are they doing? They’re growing and they’re storing fat. So that breast milk is helping do that because their pancreas isn’t advanced or mature enough to make enough insulin, so they’re getting their insulin from the breast milk, which happens from cow’s milk too. We can talk about that later.
Speaker0: [19:58] So, you know, they’ve even looked at moms who have high insulin levels. Their breast milk has higher insulin levels, which means that baby’s getting more insulin from the mom. And that leads them to this spiral. So when we look at all these intervention programs for young kids who are overweight and obese, the intervention is like almost too late by that point. The intervention needs to start in the reproductive age women to get them as healthy as possible before they even have a baby.
Speaker0: [20:24] But you know I say all that to say you know.
Speaker0: [20:28] There could be nothing more important than insulin management because, like you said, especially menopause is the same thing. It’s this very, I wouldn’t say natural phase of insulin resistance, but it is. I mean, when estrogen drops, insulin rises, and they start having all these symptoms, including cardiovascular disease. That’s why heart disease risk increases after menopause.
Speaker0: [20:49] And it’s definitely something that we’re missing, for sure.
Speaker1: [20:53] Mm-hmm. Yeah, I also in my course talk a lot about these sort of vicious cycles of inflammation driving insulin resistance and vice versa. And then you mentioned like muscle breakdown in order to get glucose levels normalized, which, you know, reduces some of our insulin sensitizing capacity because we have less muscle. And so there’s all these, you know, stress and how that affects our blood sugar and how that affects our insulin. And so we’re kind of caught in these like snowballs and, you know, which also resists kind of very basic treatment recommendations like, oh, just eat less, exercise more. Eat less, exercise more. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker0: [21:33] So, you know, that kind of goes back to this journey and what I just realized and what I understood about what foods really spike insulin. And so I think, you know, I can get wrapped up in how bad insulin is and what it causes and all these things. And people are sometimes like, OK, I get it. But like, what do I do? So, you know, the thing about insulin is that first, what we’ve been teaching for nutrition perspective, you know, all through my dietetic education and everything was more whole grains, more beans, less meat, more low-fat dairy. I think that’s been pretty much the advice that we’ve been given. And the problem with that is that, you know, when you look at whole grains and beans and sweet potatoes, they’re all starches, right? And starch is the only carbohydrate source that is pure glucose. Now, of course, those foods give you protein and fiber and vitamins and minerals, right? But they also give you lots of starch. I mean, a third of a cup of quinoa is 36 grams of starch. That’s a lot of starch. Well, the problem with that is because starch is essentially just made up of pure glucose. Pure glucose chains, that’s what starch is. So when you eat that and you break all those glucose molecules up, all that is doing is causing a huge insulin spike. So when people say, well, we should be able to have some starch, it’s not that this is a never thing.
Speaker0: [23:00] It’s like telling somebody with a peanut allergy that they should be eating peanuts because they’re healthy for them. When you’re insulin resistant, it means you’re glucose intolerant. That is essentially the medical term to our glucose intolerant. That’s why we give them glucose tolerance tests. And if you fail that, which most people do, it means you’re glucose intolerant. So the last thing you want to be doing is eating sources of pure glucose, right? That’s not going to really help you towards your goal. So when you think about carbohydrates, it’s not about limiting your total carbohydrates or having to count them. It’s simply getting them for foods that are lower in glucose, which are non-starchy vegetables and whole raw fruit versus starches. And the other thing is that, yes, those foods give you fiber and protein and vitamins and minerals, but you can get all of those same vitamins, minerals, protein, fiber in more insulin friendly options. So that’s one component that’s kind of against conventional nutrition recommendations that’s part of a low-insulin lifestyle is limit the starches as much as you can. Eat as many carbs as you want just from fruits and veggies. The second is around dairy.
Speaker0: [24:13] So remember, breast milk, the purpose of breast milk is to provide insulin and insulin growth factor. Insulin growth factor is this very, very potent growth hormone.
Speaker0: [24:24] In infancy, it’s so important. It’s what helps babies double their length and triple their weight in the first year. It’s the most rapid time of growth. I mean, just look at the clothing sizes. Anybody who has a head of baby sees that these babies are growing. But adults, or really even after infancy, were not growing really. that much. The next time that IGF-1 or insulin growth factor levels increases, again, is during puberty when we’re growing. You don’t want, you know, insulin growth factor, IGF, you don’t want IGF levels to be high throughout the lifespan because IGF-1 is the strongest predictor of cancer risk because cancer at its most basic is an overgrowth of cells, right? And so that’s just a growth hormone that’s telling your cells to grow. So milk provides both insulin and insulin growth factor. And cow’s milk provides even more than human milk because look at how much a cow has to grow. So from a milk perspective, milk is very, very insulin spiking because you’re essentially just drinking insulin. Okay. Now, the second component of dairy that’s very insulin spiking are the proteins in milk. So the proteins in milk are whey and casein. They have a very unique amino acid profile. They’re the most concentrated sources of branch chain amino acids, which are essential. You need them to build muscle.
Speaker0: [25:46] You don’t need to overdo them because overdoing branch chain amino acids causes excessive insulin secretion. And there’s tons of research looking at branch chain amino acids and type 2 diabetes. So, you know, that really begs this question of, well, we have whey protein in everything. I mean, when one walks down the-
Speaker1: [26:04] So popular you know protein cereal it
Speaker0: [26:07] Is in everything and the reason it’s in everything is because it’s a waste product from the dairy industry to make one pound of cheese it makes nine pounds of whey waste and they didn’t know what to do with it all so in the 70s and 80s somebody was like oh let’s powder this and dry it and we’ll aggressively market it to the fitness industry and you know it’ll be a high protein we’ll market it as protein and put it in everything because it’s a waste product and it’s they couldn’t they’re not allowed from the environmental protection agency if that still exists um they’re not allowed to pour it down the rivers because it killed all the fish because it causes algae bloom so they literally didn’t have anything to do with it um and so they started marketing it to people and it’s now a multi-billion dollar industry so now you look at, anything and everything. And it has whey protein in it, not because it’s healthy, but because it’s very abundant, if you can imagine.
Speaker1: [27:06] I’m so guilty of recommending it. And there’s also this conflicting, I think you made a good point about how it’s not like people get confused and they get wrapped up in emotional. And so for anyone listening, it’s not about like foods being, it’s not about like quinoa being bad. It’s about what your underlying health concerns and health goals are and whether it’s appropriate like glucose you’re not glucose tolerant just like someone who can’t consume peanuts they’re not peanut allergy but it’s some right and so when we hear of like branch chain amino acids and whey protein stimulating protein muscle synthesis it’s like okay that is appropriate for that context maybe but if we look at the context of someone who’s insulin resistant you don’t need to be spiking your insulin and this could be working gains too and this is what I was on a keto diet which we’ll probably talk about and I was like why am I not really getting that great results while I was mixing my whey protein into some yogurt high fat yogurt natural yogurt and I was like when I read your stuff I was like oh okay that’s why I’m starving after I have this
Speaker0: [28:18] Well, and let’s go back to, because I do get a lot of criticism when I make posts about whey protein from the bodybuilding community, because let’s talk about why is it effective for stimulating muscle growth?
Speaker0: [28:30] Because it spikes insulin and it spikes insulin growth factor. And those are growth hormones. I mean, they’re not that different than anabolic steroids. An anabolic steroid means growth hormone. And insulin and IGF-1, especially IGF-1, is a growth hormone. So if you’re eating things, I mean, there are some bodybuilders who are just injecting IGF-1. Like that’s now part of the doping, the doping, like where the Olympic Association is now measuring blood levels of IGF-1 to determine whether people are doping. That’s how strong of a growth hormone it is.
Speaker0: [29:06] For somebody who’s like taking a walk around the block and then coming home
Speaker0: [29:09] for a whey protein shake is not only counterproductive, but possibly worsening. And so that’s the thing is you’re going to the grocery store and you’re buying these protein pancakes thinking, well, there must be better than regular pancakes. And actually they’re worse because it’s the same processed flour, but now you have processed flour with whey protein in it. And that manufacturer of those protein pancakes paid nothing for that whey protein because it was just a waste product. And they’re charging you more for it because you think it’s healthier because it says high protein. I mean, it’s just, and even then, even if you’re not buying the protein pancakes, it’s in everything. I love Birch Bender’s pancake mix, the keto pancake mix. Well, they recently reformulated their recipe to add whey protein in it, but it’s not high protein. It’s not a high protein food. They added whey protein as an additive for who knows what. So it’s just, it’s literally in everything. And it’s like, why would, you know, to think about it, even in one cup of milk, right, if you just get a cup of milk.
Speaker0: [30:12] 20% of the protein in a cup of milk comes from what? Only 20%, which is probably biologically being like, well, we want these babies to grow, but like, let’s keep it kind of regulated, right? Let’s not make the whole thing just this huge insulin spike. But yet now we’re concentrating it and adding multiple scoops to a propotein shake and having way more branched chain amino acids and insulin spike than nature ever intended. And it’s scary. So, you know, that’s kind of the whole thing about dairy. But I’m not dairy free. Because, and I’ll, sorry, you had a question.
Speaker1: [30:52] No, no, no, go ahead. No, I think, well, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker0: [30:55] Yeah. I’m not dairy free. You would think, well, obviously she doesn’t eat dairy. No, because fermented dairy, when you think about Greek yogurt and cheese, to make Greek yogurt and cheese, you have to remove all the way. Okay. That’s why they’re, that’s why Greek yogurt is very thick compared to other types of yogurt. Skier is very thick compared to other, like regular Yoplait yogurt or whatever at the store. It’s kind of runny. That’s because it still has a lot of whey in it. Same thing with cottage cheese. It has a lot of whey in it because whey is liquid. But Greek yogurt and cheese, the way to make those is to completely remove the whey. So you’re just left with casein. Now, casein still raises insulin and insulin growth factor, but when you ferment those, the bacteria changes those branched-chain amino acids to branched-chain ketoacids. It changes the actual structure of those branched-chain amino acids, which lowers that insulin response. So when you look at these studies that look at dairy and health, they all will say, well, yogurt’s still good for you and people see a benefit because you have the probiotics from the fermentation, but you also have fundamentally changed the insulin component, the insulin spiking component of that casein. So you have a much more insulin friendly product. So I still, so it’s Greek yogurt and I recommend full fat because if you take out the fat, what are you concentrating? The protein.
Speaker1: [32:23] And the sugar.
Speaker0: [32:24] Protein is, yeah. So you want the fat in there because you don’t want so many dairy proteins. You know, dairy proteins, their biological purpose is to stimulate insulin. So I still recommend that if they’re going to, you know, for a low insulin lifestyle, we recommend getting rid of all dairy except full fat Greek yogurt and aged cheese.
Speaker1: [32:44] Yeah, which is great because it still gives you, like you said, there’s a lot of studies where it’s like, you know, yogurt can reduce belly fat, so it can be confusing for people when they hear. But I was going to say when you were talking about whey protein and the insulinemic effects, if you are monitoring your glucose with a continuous glucose monitor, adding whey protein would probably lower your glucose. Yeah.
Speaker0: [33:11] Yeah. And so that’s another thing. It’s so funny. I get, I get these people that are like, you don’t know what you’re talking about. I wear a continuous glucose monitor and it doesn’t spike my glucose. I’m like, I didn’t say it spiked glucose. Whey has no glucose in it. It’s not going to affect your glucose. It’s going to drive insulin. But you know, one of the things that protein also does naturally is it also, this might be too sciencey and we don’t even have to get into But.
Speaker0: [33:37] You know, you have glucagon also, right? So you have insulin and glucagon. And when glucagon rises, it releases glucose from the liver. And so they’ll say, oh, well, it increases glucagon, which makes people more full for longer. And that’s all true. But the reason it stimulates glucagon is because if it doesn’t, a person’s going to be hypoglycemic. It has to have that glucagon release the glucose into the bloodstream so that it doesn’t overcompensate and drive the blood sugar down too low. Does that make sense? So you have a net neutral of glucose because you’re releasing more glucose into the bloodstream from the liver, but you’re also blocking, you know, pushing glucose down lower because you’re trying to drive it into those cells. That’s why it’s great for muscle building but you don’t whey protein after a workout yes you need insulin to drive muscle growth and get those amino acids into the cells to build um but that’s like whey protein is like starting a fire and throwing gasoline on it like you can start a fire without gasoline yeah it may be faster with gasoline but you’re going to cause potentially a lot more.
Speaker0: [34:44] Problems than you intended by doing that. So yeah, definitely if people want to have a protein powder, I recommend foods with a much more balanced amino acid profile like egg white protein is great. My husband loves J-Rob. We’re not affiliated. That just seems to be a really good one. J-Rob egg white protein is good. Bone broth protein powder is also a good one or if they’re plant-based um, hep C protein is, uh, is a good one as well.
Speaker1: [35:14] Okay. Yeah. Thank you. That’s good. What about pea proteins? People ask me this all the time. So often they’ll remove the starch, although peas would naturally have starch, but do you know about the branch amino acid?
Speaker0: [35:26] Well, they are not going to have many. They are, they do have some, so they are like a complete protein, although that’s not even necessary. Like you don’t have to have every single protein source have to be a complete protein every time. As long as you’re eating a variety of protein foods, you’re going to get all you need. So when people say, well, bone broth protein is not a complete protein, you’re going to be fine. But with pea protein and brown rice protein, yes, they do remove the starch. So from an insulin spiking perspective, it’s better. It’s okay. It’s just that they’re very processed, right? They go through a very extensive processing to remove all that starch so that you can get that concentrated protein. Whereas hemp seed protein is just hemp seeds, Right now, it does top taste like the inside of a lawnmower, so you better like that earthy taste.
Speaker1: [36:19] It’s pretty rough, but you can doctor it up and make it taste pretty good.
Speaker0: [36:23] Or you can just sprinkle hemp seeds into your smoothie and they don’t have a taste at all. But the same thing with like now they’re coming out with these new protein powders like almond protein powder and pumpkin seed protein powder. They’re just processed to remove all the extra fat which you should be getting anyways because fat is good for us but it concentrates the protein because everybody is so obsessed with getting more protein getting more protein but i’d like to challenge that a lot of that came from the marketing of the whey protein powder industry um that’s interesting to make people think they needed 200 grams of protein a day yeah.
Speaker1: [37:02] I mean well and also and i’m definitely guilty of pushing the protein thing. But when people have high insulin, like generally just high fasting insulin, I mean, you’re already kind of set up to technically build muscle.
Speaker0: [37:17] Yeah.
Speaker1: [37:18] That’s a big complaint.
Speaker0: [37:19] Yeah.
Speaker1: [37:20] People are like, I easily put on muscle. I just can’t lose weight. It’s like, well, okay, then you don’t need whey maybe.
Speaker0: [37:27] No, you definitely don’t need whey. I hope that I don’t ever sound like I don’t think protein is important. Protein is absolutely important. I do not track protein at all. I did track one day just to see like, what do I get? I’m curious, you know, and I had about 95 grams of protein and that’s like from peanut butter. I love shelled, I love shelled edamame and like, you know, for lunch, I eat a pound of frozen vegetables that I put in a pan and I cook it in some avocado oil and I throw shelled edamame, like a half cup of shelled edamame and I sprinkle some grated Parmesan cheese and some toasted a pecan and it’s like this big and I will eat the whole bowl. And it’s like 30 plus grams of protein just for that. You don’t really need to track it as long as you’re being mindful that every meal you’re having fruits and veggies, you’re having something protein and you’re having some fat, you’re going to be fine. I think this idea of these excessive protein goals came from the fact that the only way you can meet that goal is by using protein powder, which then plays into the industry, you know?
Speaker1: [38:33] Yeah, I mean, we’ll get into this, but I think I was going through one of the studies where it showed sort of the macronutrient results because they had people do diet diaries. You had people do diet diaries a couple times during the two months. And yeah, they were eating about 90 grams a day, which is a lot of people struggle to get that much. And I wonder if maybe there’s something about kind of removing the food noise by having like, OK, here’s the foods that you’re eating. And, you know, a huge chunk of that is protein foods. Um maybe there’s something about how starch kind of changes our appetite or or our satiety so we’re not really interested in protein but yeah it’s interesting that we’re kind of falling into it you know
Speaker0: [39:13] They i mean these were patients who were you know very overweight they their average fasting insulin was 31 now remember it needs to be eight so their average fasting is eight or less Their average
Speaker0: [39:26] fasting insulin was 31 and their A1C was 5.2 or 5.3, like totally normal. If they went to the doctor, the doctor would be like, you’re healthy as a horse. I don’t know why you’re having all these symptoms, you know, come back when you’re in bed. Right. That’s basically what they’d be told. And behind the scenes, their insulin is three or four times higher than it needs to be. And we basically said, okay, well, you’re going to follow this plan. You’re going to eat as much as you want, whenever you want. at these foods that don’t spike insulin. Non-starchy vegetables, whole fruits, you know, lean proteins. We didn’t even stress the lean on the protein, but we were like, just trim visible fat. By no means do you need to eat egg whites. Like eat the eggs. Make sure you’re getting lots of healthy fats. I even was encouraging them. I was like, I want you to eat a whole medium avocado every day. Like I want you to make that a goal.
Speaker0: [40:19] And that was it, right? And then we told them, you’re gonna, first eight weeks, we want you to not eat anything on this list of insulin spiking foods. Also, you can have either Greek yogurt or cheese, but only one serving a day. And you could have red wine. If you want to, because it’s a sustainability, am I saying red wine is a health food? No, but… It is part of like just having something that’s sustainable that you can have as a treat and they could have an ounce of dark chocolate. And, you know, what’s really important is we didn’t allow them to exercise. And not the exercise is, of course, important. And we recommend exercise for a clinical research study. You have to make sure that the results they’re seeing are from the diet changes and not that exercise. So they couldn’t exercise. And that was it. You know, and two months later, they lost 19 pounds. They had a 50 percent reduction in insulin. They had a 50-plus percent reduction in HOMA-IR. They had a 35% drop in triglycerides. I mean, two months. Their testosterone levels went down by 25% because they had PCOS. I mean, it was crazy. The results and those results have been extended to all of the studies that we’ve done. And what was great was that they did these diaries. And so for whoever’s listening who hasn’t read the studies, their average calorie intake was just around 1,400 or 1,500 a day. I mean, again, not counting calories, eating whatever they wanted, their carb intake.
Speaker1: [41:42] As many nuts as you want.
Speaker0: [41:43] As many nuts, as much fruit, whatever they want.
Speaker1: [41:46] Red meat.
Speaker0: [41:46] Red meat.
Speaker1: [41:47] Yeah.
Speaker0: [41:49] And one girl told me, she’s like, I ate an entire pack of bacon. I know I wasn’t supposed to do that, but I kind of like just binged on a pack of bacon.
Speaker0: [41:58] I’m not saying bacon’s healthy. You should not eat bacon. It was uncured bacon, thankfully. But because their body is able to burn that fat, it wasn’t just circulating in the blood causing triglycerides, right? And so their fat intake was very high, right? I think they had 70-plus grams of fat, which coming from avocados, the actual breakdown was it was largely monounsaturated. It was coming from nuts and avocados and oils and whatnot. So, you know, that’s the thing. It’s when people get their appetite hormones more regular or regulated, they just don’t feel as hungry. I mean, that is one of the most common in the very first place. Testimonials that people tell me is when I make an, when I take an insulin first approach, not glucose, not calories, not protein. When I take an insulin first approach and insulin levels lower, your appetite hormones regulate. And they’re like, I’m just not hungry. Like I can’t believe that I have no cravings for anything. Like I’m just content and satisfied. It’s like, because your body can access your stored body fat now. And it doesn’t need to force you to eat all the time because prior it was like okay you have a lot of fat in here but like I can’t use it so I need you to keep eating because that’s the only thing I can use for energy, and now it can tap into that fat stores and so it’s like oh I’m good I don’t you can eat if you want but like I’m good yeah that’s essentially what your brain is saying.
Speaker1: [43:22] Yeah I remember reading that thing in the 1400 I was like wow because you’re eating ad libina which means just whatever you want like you can eat as much of all those allowed foods I mean there’s restrictions for the dairy in terms of portions but nothing else has portion restrictions and so people are kind of naturally settling into 1400 calories which i wonder if i mean on a diet diary day i probably wouldn’t eat my pound of bacon so it might oh no not be she didn’t report
Speaker0: [43:49] That that was not on the diet.
Speaker1: [43:50] I think that’s probably maybe like i’d be on my best behavior so that might be a little i don’t know if you agree it might be like lower than what they were eating um but they were the weight loss And I know it’s not all about weight loss, but I think it’s so difficult to lose weight when you’re insulin resistant. And a lot of like ketogenic diets and kind of zone diets, I’ve been looking at a lot of research for a course that I’m producing on insulin resistance. And 19 pounds in two months is like amazing. With no exercise. With no exercise. And no counting, no tracking, no restriction. They’re not restricting. I mean, they’re taking out certain foods. So maybe there’s an element of, you know, psychological restrictions like that. But you’re not hungry is the point, you know.
Speaker0: [44:37] And did you read our second study was really, you know, not to get too sciencey, but I think it really helps explain this concept is that, you know, we had patients get under this machine and it basically just measures oxygen and how much you breathe in and out. And it tells you whether you’re burning fat or carbs. I know science is cool. So it tells you whether you’re burning fat or carbs. Well, you know, these patients were coming in after not eating for 12 hours and they were coming in and they were burning almost no fat. Like even after fasting for all night long, their body still had so much insulin in their system that they couldn’t burn their fat. And then after that, we gave them this very high shake, high fat shake. It was just basically an insure that I added 70 grams of fat to butter melted.
Speaker1: [45:22] And also, they’re probably suffering 12 hours of no eating and they weren’t burning fat.
Speaker0: [45:28] Well, it was just that they hadn’t eaten since 7 p.m. the night before. They came in the morning. They, you know, we took them there at rest to see how much were they burning, how much fat were they actually burning after not eating for 12 hours, which most people should be only burning fat, right? You’re not, you haven’t eaten in a while. Like, you should be getting your energy from fast stores. None. They drink this high fat shake. Basically shows they stored all that fat from the shake and just burned the little bit of sugar that was in the Ensure. And that was it. All right. After eight weeks, they come in to do it again, burning almost all fat because now their insulin has dropped after the eight weeks of following this approach. They’re burning almost all fat. They drink the high fat shake, burn almost, you know, their fat burning from that after five hours was significantly higher than before. And it just shows while you go tell a patient with insulin resistance that the only way that they’re going to reverse insulin resistance is to lose weight and eat less and exercise more and come back, you know, and they’re like, I can’t even burn fat when I’m eating nothing. And it’s true. Like I lived to that. That’s why I was a binge eater. Like I would eat nothing because I was like, nothing else works. I’ll just stop eating. And then you eventually get to a point where you eat everything and then you just have this terrible cycle. But, and it’s, it’s so validating. I mean, that study was just so validating to the people who are like, I am doing everything and nothing is working.
Speaker0: [46:56] Um and then you know like just for the randomized control trial i’ll just say it was a it was an independent study right because with research like you have to have an independent group that can replicate your findings because that’s just that’s just important like i can’t run all the studies and be like this is so great somebody else has to do the same thing and see what they find um and they did they did a randomized control so half the patients just did general nutrition they They followed the NIH nutrition guidelines, which was more whole grains and beans and more low-fat dairy, and eat less and exercise more, and they got put on metformin.
Speaker1: [47:32] So they also had exercise and they had metformin.
Speaker0: [47:35] And exercise. And the other group just followed our plan with no exercise. And this was during COVID. So, I mean, this study started January of 2020. So you’ve got a lot of cortisol going along. You’ve got all these things happening. People stuck at home. And the group that followed our plan lost an average of 17 pounds. During COVID.
Speaker1: [47:58] When everyone gained the COVID-19.
Speaker0: [47:59] When everybody gained the weight. So they had, on average, it was between 12 and 17 pounds. And the group on the metformin and eat less and exercise more was, they gained a third of a pound. And their insulin levels went up. So it was just, yeah. So it really just is continuing to validate this. We’re missing the wrong biomarker, right? Insulin is really the only thing that matters and we’re just ignoring it. And it’s frustrating.
Speaker1: [48:26] I think, too, in that study, if I remember correctly, the control group, so like the high grains group, was also in a calorie deficit. Like they were told to eat 500 calories less. So they were supposed to be losing a pound per week kind of thing. And then they were exercising.
Speaker0: [48:43] Like everybody else. Yeah. They tried it because they were just standard nutrition advice, that control group. So the group that did the study was a group of reproductive endocrinologists. And they basically said, we just treated them like every other patient we treat. We have a brochure it talks about, you know, it’s just based on like the NIH nutrition information, eat less and exercise more. And if their fasting insulin was too high, which was pretty much everyone, we gave them metformin. And that was like just the standard of care. Like that’s what every other patient, except for most patients go to fertility clinics. We’re not getting their insulin tested because most fertility specialists don’t even understand that that’s the reason why these patients aren’t getting pregnant. And so, yeah, they just submitted the paper for publication. And so hopefully we’ll have that data published soon. But it was really great to have a completely independent group replicated. That study independently.
Speaker1: [49:39] Yeah, so how many studies are there in total? There’s three, I believe.
Speaker0: [49:44] So the three actual prospective clinical studies, one of those was a case series because out of the 24 patients in the original study, about 10 of them, not everybody was trying to get pregnant, first of all. Some of these patients were just trying to lose weight or improve their symptoms. But 10 of the patients, even though they, you know, were infertile, they had issues with pregnant, were getting pregnant. They were seeing a fertility specialist, which should say a lot. They got pregnant very quickly. And we had some, we had probably four or five patients who had to drop out of the study because they got pregnant in the two-month study. And they actually, so the fertility specialist wrote that up as a case series to said, you know, they talked about each patient. It was like, this patient has been infertile for this time. They’d done these different things and essentially showed that the average time to conception in these patients was 86 days after starting this lifestyle change. 86 days.
Speaker1: [50:42] That’s the average. So it had sooner. Yeah.
Speaker0: [50:45] And it blows my mind. You know, I have a friend, a couple of friends who have PCOS. And they, one of them had five miscarriages in like an 18-month period. And her doctor would refuse to test her insulin. And he said, your A1C is normal. You don’t need to test your insulin. Like, refused.
Speaker0: [51:06] And, I mean, it just blows my mind. It just blows my mind.
Speaker1: [51:09] Yeah, I think in your, there’s a lecture that you have on YouTube where you talk about how high insulin can increase the risk of miscarriage and pregnancy complications. So it’s not even just about getting pregnant. It’s also what the high insulin does to the health. Yeah.
Speaker0: [51:24] And that’s not even just PCOS. I mean, you know, that’s there was this really awesome study out of Columbia University, this group that their fertility division and their maternal fetal medicine department that was that does a lot of research on miscarriage. And this was published in Fertility and Sterility, which is, you know, the biggest fertility journal. And what they did is they said, okay, we’ve been testing glucose and A1C standard when somebody comes in with recurrent miscarriage, which means they’ve had at least two miscarriages within account, two repetitive miscarriages. And so they were like, but we’re testing their glucose and their A1C and it’s normal and it’s not necessarily associated with a higher risk of miscarriage. So what they did is they took some of these, they had patients who miscarried, and they took some of these early placenta cells, okay, and they put them in a petri dish, and they exposed them to either high levels of glucose or high levels of insulin.
Speaker0: [52:26] And what they found was that high glucose levels did absolutely nothing to those early placental cells. Nothing. High levels of insulin was as toxic to the developing placenta as chemotherapy drugs. And yet somebody comes in with recurrent miscarriage, and we don’t even test insulin. We only test glucose. And so that group alone, I mean, they’re a huge fertility center in back Columbia. And they were like, we’re missing the boat. In our clinic, we’re going to start testing insulin in every person. So it’s just, there are people that are out there talking about it,
Speaker0: [52:59] but it just hasn’t made it fully there.
Speaker1: [53:04] Yeah, it’s like it needs to kind of just, like, it’s like a Venn diagram. We’re not quite focusing in properly on what we should be. Yeah, and so back to the results. I mean, amazing. Like, people are getting pregnant. They’re losing consistently. Like, it’s not, I mean, I have a friend who’s started your program. Um, she’s on like day five and she’s like giving me a daily update. She’s like, I was so hungry. Now she’s like, I’m not hungry anymore. I feel amazing. I’ve lost just like half a pound, like almost a pound a day. It’s wild. She’s just like dropping. It’s just coming off. Your body’s like
Speaker0: [53:40] Can actually access that stored fat and do what it’s supposed to do, which is. Burn it for energy.
Speaker1: [53:47] And this is her like trying carnivore and keto just before and it wasn’t really working. And she was like, she’s trying to breastfeed. It wasn’t, you know, so this is like she’s like mind blown. And so she was telling me to ask you certain things. But, you know, I was when I was kind of selling her the protocol, I was like, no, she’s legit. She’s like, she’s repeated these results. It’s not just, you know, a one time study where people lost a bunch of weight. Like this is it’s a consistent result. where people are losing 17 to 19 pounds in two months by following this plan, you know, so you don’t have like a super loser in your group or something like that that’s doing the results.
Speaker1: [54:24] So it’s pretty miraculous. Like it really is amazing. Yeah.
Speaker0: [54:29] Well, so, you know, I don’t know if I don’t share it too much on my page yet, but I am working with the FDA. So I don’t know if you’re aware of that. So I’ve been working with the FDA for the last year. I’ve met with them five times. I have my next meeting with them in a week and a half because I’m trying to get my this app. So I’m launching an app. So it will officially be launched on May 19th. It is in the app stores right now. Do not. We’re still working on the back end, but we have to make it to get it in the app store and then we’re working on it. So I haven’t told anybody it’s there. It’s it’s there. It’s not really functioning yet. So we are officially launching it on May 19th. But one of the things that we’re trying to or that I’m trying to do is get FDA cleared as a what is called a software as a medical device. People have heard of software as a service, whatever. So now the FDA regulates this type of medical device, which is a software. So apps are considered software as a medical device. So, you know, there’s a few that are approved for diabetes, some that are approved for depression. So this would be the very first approved for insulin resistance or PCOS.
Speaker0: [55:34] But, you know, I have to do this big study. right? You have to do a big, study, uh, to support that clearance. Um, and I have an entire independent group, a different independent group. So, um, I’m very, very proud to say that my, the PI or the person who’s basically the ringleader of this study is, um, Dr. Timothy Garvey. He’s the director of obesity research at, um, University of Alabama, Birmingham, which is a huge research center. Um, he’s an, you know, internationally known endocrinologist. So he is taking the study and like, I have a dermatologist dermatologist, a clinical dermatologist at University of Texas. I have an obstetric neurologist who’s doing all of like the mood evaluation changes after using this. She’s at Baylor. I have another dietitian, PhD dietitian who’s out in California. So, I mean, it’s truly independent, right? Like I can’t have anything to do with it. And so, and they’re basically where they’re having patients use our app. So, they’ll use the app for eight weeks, follow the guidance. It has recipes and meal plans and all the things. And after eight weeks, we test their blood before and after and submit it to the FDA for approval. So we’re hoping to have that next year, which would really just be, you know.
Speaker0: [56:50] Amazing for patients and amazing to like really have this become like the standard treatment for insulin resistance is an insulin first approach.
Speaker1: [57:02] Yeah like to just have your doctor be able to give you that advice it’ll actually work so it’s motivating you feel a lot better you’re not as hungry um you’re even your taste buds change because you’re like you’re you’re interacting with whole foods that aren’t spiking your insulin so your like cravings and your appetite are all regulated and oriented towards what the food that you’re getting as opposed to like random you know you’re not ending up at the bottom of a bag of potato chips because you’re like blood
Speaker0: [57:30] Sugars drain i need more glucose and i can’t get it and i need to eat this.
Speaker1: [57:34] Yeah and
Speaker0: [57:36] So that’s why you know i don’t necessarily i don’t necessarily condemn the use of the glp1 drugs because GLP-1 is an important appetite hormone. And tons of data, research has shown that when people have high insulin levels, they have lower GLP-1 because insulin is a master hormone. It affects everything, including your appetite hormone. So when insulin is off, your appetite is really unregulated. And the GLP-1 drugs are kind of just like bypassing that whole system just to like flood the body with GLP-1 so that you don’t feel as hungry, which is fine. But the thing is is that if you were just to focus on this you would increase naturally levels the glp1 because insulin is suppressing that you know so um that’s where i’m like you can you could do that that drug but you have to realize like you’re not fixing the problem and the problem’s going to come back the appetite problem the weight problem is going to come back until you fix the underlying hormonal problem cause of why you are hungry all the time in the first place you know Yeah.
Speaker1: [58:40] Yeah, because, I mean, the problem, I think, it’s a common criticism with those drugs is that it can be a really important tool. I mean, some people have a lot of weight to lose, you know, it’s causing a lot of problems. But if you’re just having less Doritos, like it’s just about appetite suppression, and you’re not shifting your dietary patterns, and you’re not kind of using it as an opportunity to learn and to change things, then you’re either stuck on them forever, getting nutrient deficient and losing muscle mass, or you’re just going to gain the weight back. So you have to kind of change things. So it’s why not try the diet first, the exercise first, and then use them as a tool if you have like 300 pounds to lose or something.
Speaker1: [59:22] You know, if you have a lot of weight to lose, maybe they could be helpful. But yeah. That’s what Dr.
Speaker0: [59:26] Gardy wants to do, right? He’s like, after we do this study, you know, if you would be interested in sponsoring another study to look at patients on GLP-1 drugs who also follow this plan, right? Because taking a GLP-1 drug actually stimulates insulin secretion. And so if you’re eating foods causing even more insulin secretion and you’re in a calorie deficit because you’re not eating as much, you’re just eating less of insulin spiking foods, you’re actually losing muscle because it goes back to the body not being able to burn fat. And so it needs to make up that calorie deficit somewhere and it’s going to pull from your muscle. So that’s really why you’re seeing a lot of muscle mass on these drugs. And so when you, he was like, if we could pair something like this with the GLP-1 drugs, then while you’re getting your own appetite hormones more regulated, you have this. And then when you come off of it, you don’t see such a huge shift in making, you know, wanting to go back to eating all the time because now you’ve fixed the underlying cause. That is how those GLP-1 drugs should be used. But they’re not being used because they’re not giving the right information. They’re not giving the right education. And they’re sending them home telling them to eat more whole grains and beans and low-fat dairy and then they’re just in this cycle of bad. And so if we could come out with that data, I think it would be, you know, life-changing, I think.
Speaker1: [1:00:46] That’d be really interesting. Yeah, it’d be interesting to see, like, what people actually, I’m wondering if there’s data on, like, what do people end up eating when they’re on a GLP-1? Like, what are their macronutrient spreads? Because people tend to lose appetite for, like, high-fiber foods, protein foods. Like, you don’t want satiating foods. You want just kind of easy to absorb, easy to digest. You’re nauseous. So you’re probably going to go for more starchy foods i would assume but
Speaker0: [1:01:12] Well except for now everything it’s like well you need to be a you need to be making eating more protein so you don’t lose so much muscle mass it’s like the reason they’re thought the reason they’re losing muscle mass is not because they’re not drinking whey protein shakes like in fact that might worsen it so it’s it’s that message and so now you’ve got all these food companies that are going about to come out with tons of protein rich snacks because they’re trying to attack they’re trying to attach themselves to the people who are taking these drugs who are trying to eat more protein and those snacks are just the same processed crap with now processed way back i saw that that there’s like very like.
Speaker1: [1:01:57] Big food is trying to design foods that kind of override the natural appetite suppression so that you still stay addicted so it’s like a whole hot mess
Speaker0: [1:02:07] I don’t know if it’s that or they’re just trying to appeal to this new customer who’s like well i’m not really hungry but i have to get my protein in so i’m gonna eat this protein snickers and it’s gonna be better for me so it’s just, and it’s sad and it’s scary and you know that’s that’s where we’re going because everything you scroll on instagram one time and all it talks about is if you don’t get 50 grams of protein for breakfast and you can just kiss your biceps goodbye. And it’s like, hmm.
Speaker1: [1:02:37] Yeah. But maybe, yeah.
Speaker0: [1:02:39] I’m not saying protein is important. I’m saying you don’t need 50 grams.
Speaker1: [1:02:44] Yeah. Like if you’re, yeah, regulating your insulin levels, are you just, are you going to be better at using and maintaining your muscle mass and burning fat instead of burning your muscle, you know, the protein from your muscle to make glucose?
Speaker0: [1:02:58] Yes.
Speaker1: [1:03:00] Like those people, those sugar burners in your, in the study that you referenced were probably just breaking down their muscle mass.
Speaker0: [1:03:06] Yeah they’re breaking down like shake yes the amino acids that they because you know when you eat protein it your body breaks it down into the amino acids and then it uses those whatever it needs right whatever amino acid it needs to build whatever that is whether it’s hair because there’s like you know whatever amino acids they need at the time for those things so that’s like an amino acid pool which is why every single food you eat doesn’t have to be a complete protein because it’s just getting broken down into these bricks right and they’re just pulling the bricks as they need them. But that’s what’s happening is that those sugar burners were essentially just burning yesterday’s excess protein that he didn’t need, which because a lot of times we’re eating more protein than we actually need. Not everybody. Some people are not. But now I feel like people are.
Speaker0: [1:03:51] Putting a scoop of whey protein into their Greek yogurt, which is like a lot of protein in one sitting. And it’s just breaking that down into those bricks that they can then use for energy if they can’t get enough body fat. So that’s basically what they were doing because you can break amino acids down into like essentially glucose and just burn that. So metabolism is very complex, right? It can definitely overwhelm people.
Speaker0: [1:04:16] But I think at the end of the day, if it if it seems excessive it probably is um and if it seems too good to be true it probably is like going back to the instagram account on glucose regulation you know if you are adding there’s this idea of food combining of if you add if you’re going to eat carbs you need to make sure you add fat or proteins to it and it will make sure that your glucose doesn’t rise too fast and sure, there are all kinds of beautiful CGM reports that will support this message that as long as you add butter to your bread, then it will be okay because your glucose doesn’t rise. But what that’s doing is when you have a lot of fat and a lot of glucose in the bloodstream at one time, it actually, the fat, I remember my biochemistry teacher in college said, When you have too much fatty acids and too much glucose in the bloodstream at one time, what that does is it’s like throwing gum in a lock. Those fatty acids block the insulin from working. So then the pancreas does what?
Speaker0: [1:05:28] Sends out even more, right? So you have this huge insulin spike happening in the background, which is driving that blood glucose down. So what you see on your CGM is adding butter to my bread stopped that glucose spike. That’s so great. But what you don’t know in the background is the insulin bomb that happened to keep that glucose level normal. And that’s what the problem is. So, yeah.
Speaker0: [1:05:52] It’s unfortunate because I think now 5 million people think that as long as they add peanut butter to their ice cream or their, you know, whatever, that it’s like better. Again, I’m going to do that. It’s more nuanced than that.
Speaker1: [1:06:07] Yeah, like I, this is why yours have blew my mind because I, I was sort of recommend, I mean, there is a separate benefit to regulating blood sugar, obviously, but it, it, the story is more holistic. Think it makes more sense in the context of insulin because insulin is damaging. So it’s like not about regulating blood sugar at the expense of insulin spikes. It’s, but you know, so I would recommend to people, okay, you’re addicted to donuts and you’re going to get a donut nut to put some peanut butter on it to regulate it. And there’s a bit of like maybe delayed gastric emptying or delayed release of glucose. But when I saw your comment, I was like, yeah, I knew this from biochemistry, but for some reason didn’t put it together.
Speaker1: [1:06:49] And it may speak to, to give myself some compassion and credit, it may speak to just how we’re so not focused on insulin, even in holistic space.
Speaker0: [1:06:58] Like you said, there is an aspect of managing glucose. That’s true. But if you are managing the insulin, then it’s working well. It’s working, it’s doing what it needs to do. And you don’t really need to focus on the glucose. So I have a lot of people say, well, if I have commented to that post or sent me direct messages, they’re like, well, so does that mean that I should just, well, what if I want to eat gummy bears? Like, is it worse to add almonds to my gummy bears or just eat the gummy bears by themselves? And I said, well, this is the actually, what you need to realize is that, you know, if you want it, if you want to eat Oreos, do it infrequently and enjoy them. And if you want to dip them in peanut butter, do it because it’s delicious but don’t lie to yourself that the peanut butter has somehow made the oreos better for you because it didn’t and it actually was probably worse but it’s it’s more about enjoying the foods you want to eat and enjoying them and not feeling like you have to add something to it to make it better because then you’re then you’re mentally thinking well oh i can just i’ll eat you know whatever i’ll eat the bread because i’ll just put the butter on it and it will cancel it out that is just human nature and that is what people do because their cgm tells them that that’s better and that’s just not the case and so it’s it’s not necessarily that that eating it by itself is good by any means but i don’t think anybody needed to tell you that eating gummy bears wasn’t good for you right i’m trying to tell you that yeah adding almonds doesn’t make them better yeah.
Speaker1: [1:08:27] It’s like just let them serve their purpose which is
Speaker0: [1:08:30] Just serve their purpose enjoy them enjoy them and try make them as infrequently as possible because life is meant to be lived, enjoy the things occasionally, but, adding protein and fat. And like you said, with the delayed gastric emptying, my challenge to that is ideally what you want is you want insulin to be released after a meal, help bring your blood and then you want it to come down, right? And you want it to be low so that between meals, you’re pulling fat from your body fat. And then it goes up again after a meal and then it comes down. And then after dinner and while you’re sleeping, it’s low. I mean, that’s really the idea, ideal. You want it to go up and then back down, up and then back down quickly.
Speaker0: [1:09:09] When you are adding protein to gummy bears now you’re adding like you know some cheese to gummy bears or something what that’s doing it is delayed delaying that gastric emptying but it’s not, it’s not getting rid of the glucose you’re still going to absorb all the glucose from those gummy bears but now you’re just doing it over time well what does that mean that means glucose levels are higher in the system for longer and insulin levels are higher in the system for longer right versus just having it go up and then come back down i’m not saying you should just eat the gummy bears you shouldn’t eat gummy bears but if you do just do it because you like it and try to do it as least less frequently as possible but if otherwise if you’re just eating fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds and proteins and all of that then you would eat your insulin would come up moderately do what it needs to do and then come back down versus you know eating a biscuit with eggs on it. Like, okay, it’s not going to have a huge glucose spike, but now you’re just going to have glucose higher for longer as it slowly enters the bloodstream. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And then really at the end of the day, there is no way that you’re going to slice it, cut it or whatever. Starch is going to lead to higher glucose and there’s nothing you’re going to add to it that is going to make it better. So if you have to have it, enjoy it. Don’t lie to yourself that doing something has made it better for you. Just move on and try to do better at the next meal. That’s my advice.
Speaker1: [1:10:31] Drink water. Yeah. And also, if you’re healing insulin resistance in the background, you’re able to kind of come down again, right? You’re dealing with this cause.
Speaker1: [1:10:40] So maybe you’ve better tolerance for those random spikes and you eat your Oreos and you get done.
Speaker0: [1:10:46] And your liver is better able to clear that insulin from the blood. So like one of the studies that that influencer likes to use a lot is a study that shows, well, if you add protein and fat to starch and sugar, it leads to lower glucose levels. Well, yes, but in the exact same study, it talks about how insulin levels rose 52%, in the same period, right? And part of that was because it increased insulin secretion, and part of that was in decreased insulin clearance. Because when you add the fat and the protein to your fat and the starch, the body’s like, well, I can’t get rid of this glucose or this insulin. I have to have this insulin here because something has to get rid of this glucose. So that’s why it increases insulin secretion and prevents the liver from actually getting rid of excess insulin from the blood. So you just have more insulin, right? More insulin means less less blood sugar. So, you know, if you read the article, it says that very, very blatantly. Like, I think it was on like the sixth line. It was like, it increases insulin secretion and decreases insulin clearance. And it’s like, you’re.
Speaker1: [1:11:50] Yeah, but you’re an insulin researcher. So you’re like, you see it right away, but everyone else is like, that’s great. Higher insulin is what we want, right? That’s, that’s what we do with our job.
Speaker0: [1:11:59] Exactly. I commented on her post like a year ago, or this person’s post like over a year ago. And I said something to that effect. I was like, you can’t manage a glucose and just ignore the insulin. And I think she has some moderators. And one of her moderators said, she’s not an insulin expert. She’s a glucose expert. And I was like.
Speaker1: [1:12:17] Like, okay.
Speaker0: [1:12:18] Okay, I have to walk away.
Speaker1: [1:12:20] I know everyone knows exactly what we’re talking about. I mean, there’s no reason to not say the name, but it’s funny too, because the approach isn’t, like, clinically, when I’m working with people, it’s not an easier approach necessarily. Like, you know, I actually had one patient I’m just thinking of who, you know, we got blood work back, she’s insulin resistant, I started educating her on what that means. And she’s like, you’re not going to make me follow the, you know, this influencer stuff, are you? Where it’s like, you know, fiber before your meal, which is maybe not a horrible advice. And like adding, it’s like, you’re not going to make me follow that, are you? But when I’m recommending the low insulin lifestyle, which I have been doing, actually, a lot of people are like happy to receive it. Like it’s, there’s something very validating about understanding the symptoms. And the diet is very manageable for people, like kind of psychologically. You can eat what you want. It’s logical. It makes sense. It’s not like like low FODMAP diets. There’s certain fruits and vegetables that people don’t categorize that you’re allowed and you’re not allowed. At this one, it’s you’re allowed all the fruit you want, all the non-starchy vegetables, all the animal protein, your six ounces of Greek yogurt or an ounce of cheese, all the fat you want and avoid sugar. And then you have like it’s a very little it’s a small blur that I send people.
Speaker0: [1:13:36] Yeah, it’s a small little thing. And there’s always, you know, you have allulus and monk fruit and all these other things. So you can still have those. I cook with almond flour all the time. I mean, I make almost, I have tons of stuff with almond flour. I mean, I make Cheez-Its. Like I just mix almond flour and egg and some cheddar cheese and I roll it out and I air fry them. And it’s like, you know, so I, there are so many, and that’s part of, you know, what will be on the app is just hundreds of recipes, like things like this to really help. And I’m, I’m not doing a plug, but I’m just saying I am coming out. A guidebook, because I feel like the original book is very silency, but in a layman’s perspective. And if we need to stop, we can. I mean, I’m good. But… Is this guidebook that’s like, if, okay, you know, this is a lot of science. I like to know, and it’s important to know, but I want to know, like, how do I really incorporate this? And some people want something tangible. So in the next month or so, I’m launching a guidebook, which is like, it really still goes into the details of the studies and the data and the science, but with more pictures, less words, more, you know, recipes, meal plans, how to eat at restaurants, what to do in the holidays, how to build a grocery list, how to read a nutrition label. Like, I mean, just kind of like this more reference guide that’s more tangible for people who don’t want to use an app. You know, they can have a book, be very colorful. They can set it in their kitchen and like reference whenever they want. So that’s, I think will help be helpful too.
Speaker1: [1:14:59] It’s so good. Yeah. It’s your Instagram account is great too. You have lots of good recipes. Like, but I think, I think one thing we might’ve missed is why is fruit allowed? Because I think people might be wondering that. I don’t know. Okay.
Speaker0: [1:15:11] So fruit is part glucose and part fructose. Now, fructose gets a very bad reputation for good reason. Too much fructose overwhelms the liver, leads to fatty liver, which is like high fructose corn syrup. So fructose in large amounts, really bad. Actually, just a history lesson. One of the reasons why they came out with high fructose corn syrup, aside from it just being very cheap and very sweet, was because it had less glucose. They thought it would be better for diabetics. Because it wouldn’t lead to the same glucose response. Does that make sense?
Speaker1: [1:15:43] Yeah. They didn’t realize that. We’ll throw this in. It’ll be great.
Speaker0: [1:15:47] What could go wrong? It’ll be so healthy. And then they were like, oh, this was a problem. They don’t care. They still add it to everything. But we know that excess fructose is a problem. Now, whole fruit.
Speaker0: [1:15:58] Well, sorry. The good thing about fructose in its naturally occurring form amounts is that it requires zero insulin release for metabolism. So fructose does not elicit any insulin relief. So that’s, again, why they thought, oh, high fructose corn syrup would be great, but no. So the amount of fructose in a whole raw fruit is not going to overwhelm your liver, right? You have that fiber. It is going to slow that digestion. So you’re getting a slow trickle of the fructose instead of just, you know, a soda. So because it’s part fructose and because fructose does not elicit any insulin response, fructose as a whole has a lower insulin response. Now, fruit still has glucose and you still might see something on your CGM or something, but it’s still going to be far less than, you know, having a whole apple as compared to a third of a cup of quinoa is very different, right? And so the amount of glucose in a whole apple is maybe 10 grand. It’s like 6 grams of fructose, about 10 grams of glucose, whereas 36 grams in a third of a cup of quinoa. So it’s really just thinking about that perspective is that fruit doesn’t have that huge insulin response because it’s part fructose.
Speaker0: [1:17:22] And I always like to tell people, too, agave nectar.
Speaker0: [1:17:27] Is worse than high fructose corn syrup. Agave nectar is 90% fructose. High fructose corn syrup is only 55% fructose. So you’re drinking straight fructose when you’re having agave nectar. So I just try to tell people just because it’s natural sugar doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s better.
Speaker1: [1:17:47] Yeah, that’s a good point. Yeah. And I think one thing that you stress is that there’s no limits on fruit. So people are eating as much food as they want, which when I hear that, I’m like, Dr. Allie, I don’t think you know me. Like maybe you’ve done research, but maybe you haven’t met people like me. Like I could eat a lot of fruit if you’re just going to let me go. But it looks like people were eating about 90 grams of carbs, which is fairly low carb. And your desire, yeah, kind of.
Speaker0: [1:18:14] Your desire goes down. You’re like, I eat fruit every day, but I probably eat like, I don’t know like two pieces of fruit maybe like sometimes one sometimes two sometimes more but again it’s one of those things where you’re just full you’re eating a lot of fiber you’re eating a lot of fat and protein and you just like fruit is great but you’re just not as hungry and you’re definitely not as hungry for carbs so it’s just one of those where you still eat them but it’s not one of those like I want to eat you know this whole bowl of fruit you just have your your taste buds and your appetite changes.
Speaker1: [1:18:48] Yeah, this is so good. What have you seen beyond two months? I don’t know if you’ve tracked people or worked with people or just in personal experience. How long does it typically take for people to get their insulin into the normal range? It looked like people’s HbA1c was all normalized after two months.
Speaker0: [1:19:06] It was normal to begin with. Yeah.
Speaker1: [1:19:10] Sorry, their HOMA-IR. HOMA-IR was what I wanted to say.
Speaker0: [1:19:12] Yeah, yeah. So we haven’t done any studies beyond eight weeks. Okay. Right. Just from financially, right? The longer the study it is, the more money. And even the new study, it’s called the Lilac study, the Lilly App clinical study. The Lilac study is also eight weeks. Because from research, it’s hard to like do these. Now, after the eight weeks, we will give the participants the ability to say, would you be interested in continuing to follow this? and, you know, continuing to even just report patient-reported outcomes, like how their acne has changed. There’s some of these very validated, like, PCOS quality of life surveys that we’ll administer once a month just to continue to keep that data, have them self-report their weight once a month. You know, so I’m excited about doing more research. You know, part of the revenue from our company as a whole will go to continuing to provide more funding for research because I want to do all kinds of, you know, research. But.
Speaker0: [1:20:13] Beyond what after you know eight weeks like I have quite a few Instagram influencers like one girl I think she’s lost she went from like 190 and now she’s 135 she’s pregnant right now so but she’s she’s been following me for over a year a year and a half um and then a personal friend or a family friend of mine she was four foot 11 and 190 and she’s now 135 and she’s that’s been two and a half years and she’s been like just steady at 135 and she she had a stroke like 10 years ago and her doctor now took her off all of her meds because her her blood levels of everything are normal so it is sustainable because it teaches you to think about food in a different way you’re not thinking about of calories and i need to eat more i need to exercise to burn off something it’s it’s thinking of it you know in a different way and i i’ve plenty of people that are like i’ve lost so much weight i’ve gotten around i got rid of all of my fat clothes because i have no concern that i’m ever going to keep it off like i i have no no issue um or others will say i’ll go on vacation and like i’ll do whatever i want but it’s okay because i come home and i get right back on it and the water weight that i’ve gained is off in a week you know and i’m back right back to my normal so it’s like you can still enjoy your life um and have those moments where you can just.
Speaker0: [1:21:35] Eat what you want as long as you know what your default is. You’re going to come home and you’re going to get back on your default and you’re going to give your pancreas a break from the damage you just did. I don’t want to say damage. From the enjoyment that you’ve had and then you’re going to go back and you’re going to give your pancreas a break. So I have what’s called a bounce back blueprint that I put in the it’s like, you’re going to wake up you’re going to drink a bunch of water or you’re going to go for a long walk. Like how to get back into all right I’m going to get back into mine.
Speaker1: [1:22:04] That’s good. Yeah, it’s good from kind of like, like a binge eating perspective, right? It’s like, okay, like, no all or nothing thinking, just get back on it. And, and, you know, you’re not, I think you’ve talked about the keto diet. And this is because you’re eating carbs, and you’re just getting your carbs from fruit and vegetables. You’re not like, going on vacation, getting out of ketosis, then having a switch back in going through that whole metabolic process,
Speaker0: [1:22:29] Like you’re just a few weeks.
Speaker1: [1:22:30] Yeah, you’re just okay, I’ll just I’m just probably going to eat a lot of bananas the first day until everything regulates and then and then my appetite will settle and I’m not having to like metabolically switch in that way that, you know, can cause side effects for people or this idea of like, you’re either in it or out of it.
Speaker0: [1:22:50] Because ketosis is I mean keto basically lowers insulin that’s what it’s that’s what it’s doing it’s just doing it in a very aggressive way and when your insulin lowers that that low and you don’t have any glucose that you’re eating your body has no choice but to switch over and burn only fat which is what is releasing those ketones and what your body is using but, That that leads to that keto flu, because until your insulin level is lower enough to where you can burn that body fat, your brain is like, I don’t have anything here. Like, I don’t have enough glucose. I don’t have enough fat to eat to use because your insulin is too high. You really have to wait until you get to that switch where you can lower insulin and you can start burning all that body fat. But here is this more of a middle ground because your insulin levels are lowering, but you still have some glucose that you’re eating from the fruits and the vegetables. So it’s more of like what’s called metabolically flexible you’re you’re you’re able to burn glucose when you need to and then your insulin levels fall and then you can burn some body fat and then you eat again and you can burn some glucose and then you can burn some body fat you’re just your body is and that’s a term like that’s an actual term metabolic flexibility that you are flexible and that you can burn whatever it is that you need um most people can’t do that right most people can’t burn body fat can’t burn fat for energy um and then keto it’s just a very aggressive way of lowering insulin and wanting to just never have a glucose well you don’t really have to do that right like you can there is a middle ground yeah.
Speaker1: [1:24:17] Which is yeah which is so refreshing to see and like you know it’s well received like people love it like oh i can have as much fruit okay because we’re told often that fruit is bad and everything is confusing you know
Speaker0: [1:24:30] Because it’s glucose right they think oh if carbs are bad carbs are bad like think of it more of like how it’s affecting your metabolism, right? And how you’re, and people think of metabolism as just like how many calories you burn every day. No, no. Metabolism means how you use the food that you eat for energy or store it as fat. And if you’re eating foods that are constantly forcing insulin release, then you’re storing it as fat. You know, that’s just what’s happening. So, and eating big breakfast to boost your metabolism, that’s, eat when you want if you’re not a breakfast person don’t eat breakfast right like this is getting rid of every single food rule there is one rule if it spikes your insulin you should avoid it as much as you can if it doesn’t spike your insulin eat it whenever you want you know that is there is one rule you know and that really it makes people feel refreshed like the amount of, brain space that I don’t spend on food because I just and you know for 10 plus years the amount I mean the amount of time I spent worried about food and calories and carbs and working out and protein and everything else like it’s just like free up your brain for other things in life that bring you joy you know that’s really the most important thing.
Speaker1: [1:25:52] Yeah I can relate to that so much you know and even the being a sugar burner like being metabolically inflexible when I first learned about it I was like yeah that’s me every two hours I need to eat and it feels like you’re not you know especially if you’re if you are a calorie like I was a calorie tracker for a while and I’d be like how am I burnt like if this has 500 calories why am I hungry you know based on this whole calories in calories out all the biochemistry that you learn like I should be full for i don’t know longer than two hours i’m not burning 500 calories sitting here and studying um and so when i learned about that i was like oh yeah i’m not accessing the fat from my food or my body i’m just running on sugar it’s like a bat like a car with a race car engine or something i’m like burning all the gas out and having to refuel constantly and it’s mad
Speaker0: [1:26:40] And this is nine out of ten i think it’s like four out of ten kids they did a study you could test the insulin levels of a five-year-old right now. And it will tell you whether they’re going to be overweight, have type early diabetes, a five-year-old. And they did finger pricks at school for like thousands of kids. And they measured them. They followed them over the course of like, I think, 10 years or so. And they said the number one strongest predictor of early, you know, adolescent obesity was elevated fasting insulin at age five. And it’s so sad. It is. There’s so much to be done. And I will say, people are going to be like, well, why are people not talking about this? Why are doctors not talking about this? Why are you measuring it? I can tell you in one very simple way. Because the only time that clinical guidelines actually change is when somebody foots the bill. And it’s usually Big Pharma. So when Big Pharma came out with cholesterol-lowering drugs, they had the teams that worked with the clinical societies. They worked with the insurance companies. They worked on developing the standard ranges because they had a solution to a problem that they needed to make sure that everybody understood the problem so they would buy the solution.
Speaker1: [1:28:02] Mm-hmm.
Speaker0: [1:28:03] And unfortunately, there is no drug in development for lowering insulin levels. And so because of that, there is nobody footing the bill for increasing access to this information, to making sure that we have standard ranges, to make sure the insurance companies are reimbursing for this. I mean, it is, it takes deep pockets to do that. And the only people who have pockets deep enough are big pharma. And there’s no drug on the horizon to lower insulin. And that is the reason. Because they have huge field forces to go out and educate every single doctor about you need to measure this and why. And look at our data. And this is so important. And look at the outcomes for people who lower than, there’s nobody doing that.
Speaker1: [1:28:40] Yeah. It was a whole task force around fat, cholesterol. It was like decades of people all getting together and deciding on these guidelines. And, you know, and that I’m just thinking about the kid with high insulin who, you know, let’s say the parents are like, OK, we’re going to put some effort in and we’re going to look at your diet and we’re going to follow the guidelines. We’re going to put, you know, pay attention to labels and we’re going to probably be eating our six.
Speaker0: [1:29:05] We’re going to eat whole grain.
Speaker1: [1:29:09] Yeah. Which, you know, so it’s like we take our effort, our best intentions and then we’re we’re not applying the right interventions. And people give up you
Speaker0: [1:29:19] Know yes and then they’re like but whole grains are good for you i’m not saying that they don’t have nutrition that doesn’t mean they’re good for somebody with glucose intolerance which is essentially almost everyone so you know yeah they think that they have the best intentions they go to the store they buy the whole grain goldfish instead of the regular goldfish and they buy the protein special K because it has more protein and low calories and they mix it with the low fat skin milk. And literally every single one of those choices could not put more insulin into the system. I mean, it is literally flooding it. And it’s like, Oh, there’s another dietitian influencer on, on Instagram. And she basically was like, if your kid is struggling and you should, if they want to have KFC and they want to eat the biscuits, you just need to make sure that you give them the chicken leg with the biscuit because the chicken leg gives you the protein and the fat. And so that’ll offset the biscuit. I mean, this is a dietitian. She has hundreds of thousands of followers and it’s just maddening. It’s maddening and so and i feel like nobody can win for losing because they’re just they’re like i’m following all this advice and my kid’s getting worse or you know and it’s just yeah.
Speaker1: [1:30:38] I really feel like it doesn’t work or i’m broken work or yeah
Speaker0: [1:30:41] I made a i made a post recently that we go to conferences we go to the big conflict the big fertility conference and whatnot and i i have i’ve had many doctors tell me fertility specialists tell me i don’t send my pso my pcos patients to dieticians anymore because they come back worse than they started because that they get told eat more whole grains and beans and low-fat dairy and they come back and they’re heavier than they started yeah i.
Speaker1: [1:31:03] Have a patient i’m thinking with prediabetes who’s already on like maxo and the metformin dose and her dietician is like okay when your blood sugar drops because you’re on metformin and you’re not diabetic so your blood sugar is going too low and it’s but you know metformin is lower in blood sugar it is lung insulin a little bit but not enough and uh it’s like just have a candy. Take candies with you and have candies to bring your blood sugar up. I put a diabetic patient.
Speaker0: [1:31:28] It’s just granola bar. Like, oh my God.
Speaker1: [1:31:31] Terrible. So it’s just, and even she was like, this isn’t working. I feel like trash. Like, I’m not going to go anymore.
Speaker0: [1:31:38] Dietitians do not understand insulin resistance. It’s not taught in school. I mean, I graduated in from my bachelor’s in 2009. So that was a long time ago. And I was really hopeful that they’d at least caught up with the data. But I have another follower who’s currently getting her bachelor’s in nutrition. She’s like, The only thing I’ve learned about insulin is that you give it to diabetics to lower their blood sugar and that’s it. Like they do not learn about this. So if everything looks like a hammer, if all you have is a hammer and everything looks like a nail, everyone’s getting the same advice. Yeah.
Speaker1: [1:32:10] Terrible. It’s flashy.
Speaker0: [1:32:12] You can tell I’m very passionate about this.
Speaker1: [1:32:14] This is so good. This is so informative. I think people are really going to love this. My last question is, you know, about men. So I know your research is PCOS. We’re talking more broadly about insulin resistance. I think what’s really beautiful about your research is that it’s done on women because so much is not done on women at all. And so conventional advice like intermittent fasting, cold therapy, all this stuff that’s so great and influencers are recommending may not be great for women who have different hormones, different considerations.
Speaker1: [1:32:42] But this is like these are results done on women. And everybody who’s done a diet with their male partner knows like he loses like 50 pounds, I lose one, you know? Yeah. But my friend wanted to know if if this applies to men, which I think the answer is obvious. But yeah.
Speaker0: [1:32:59] I mean, it applies to everyone. Right. Kids, pregnant women, men, everything. Because for men, you know, one of the bigger issues is around the age 35, they start to have a reduction in testosterone. Right. Let’s call it menopause. They start to have a reduction in testosterone just naturally, which coincides with an increase in insulin. So a lot of times they’ll see that they’re having Dabod, which may not be anything to do with what they are changed in their eating or exercise. But when you have higher insulin, you start to gain weight and a large part of that goes to your stomach.
Speaker0: [1:33:31] And more so, that’s even more problematic with that is that when you have more fat tissue, That fat tissue has an enzyme called aromatase. And what happens is testosterone gets converted to estrogen into that fat tissue. So now not only do you have this natural decline in testosterone, but now whatever testosterone is left and being pumped out is getting turned into estrogen, right? So you have a, that’s what’s causing men to have low testosterone. And the only therapy we’re giving is to do testosterone injections or testosterone replacement therapy, but you’re not getting to the real reason why they have the low testosterone in the first place.
Speaker0: [1:34:13] That’s one of the problems, but that also leads to erectile dysfunction because now you have more chronic inflammation, which inflames, you know, all of your vascular system, but also, you know, having lower testosterone. So all of that kind of compounds to lead to erectile dysfunction, which is one of the earliest symptoms of insulin resistance in men. People, I had no idea. A third of men experience erectile dysfunction. That is a very early sign of problems. Before they have anything wrong with their labs, before anything happens, if they’re experiencing erectile dysfunction at an early age, it’s not just psychological. There is definitely something wrong going on. So that’s something I would say if you’re having a husband that’s experiencing that, they need to probably go get a workup. But, you know, the other thing is like sperm, high insulin and that chronic inflammation leads to changes in the sperm. So, you know, if you’re trying to get pregnant, you need to be following it. But so does he. He needs to have the healthiest sperm he can have. And that starts with, lowering insulin, making sure there’s not enough testosterone, making sure there’s not chronic inflammation. So I shared earlier, my husband, he’s part Hispanic. His dad died of a massive heart attack at the age of 41.
Speaker0: [1:35:28] And he was about 200 pounds when we started dating. He’s 5’11”. And he has now, I mean, that’s been 10 years, 10, 12 years since we started dating. And he is, he’s at 175 and has stayed at 175 like completely and he’s not perfect I told I told you that he doesn’t realize you can eat a pint of ice cream in more than in different settings like he just eats the whole thing so he’s not perfect but he is very very you know if he goes up a little bit he stays strict for like a few weeks and he’s back down and it’s just you know very even keel And I will say, you know, we, there was a study in 1966. So back in 1966, where they said fasting insulin is the strongest predictor of heart disease, strongest predictor of heart disease in the Lancet in 1966. So he went to his cardiologist like two months ago, because I told him, I was like, you know what? I don’t care that you look healthy. You obviously have genetic history. You need to go and start getting work up with your cardiologist. He’s 38. And uh, he went and he asked his doctor his cardiologist to test his insulin levels and she literally said I don’t think you can test insulin Wow And he was like, yeah, I know you can test insulin. She goes, I don’t know how to do that I’m gonna have to go talk to my colleagues.
Speaker1: [1:36:50] In 1966, so right before the low-fat cholesterol kind of paradigm.
Speaker0: [1:36:55] Everything. We have known for decades on decades that insulin is a problem, and yet here we are in 2025, and we’re not measuring it. And their excuse is that, well, the assays aren’t predictable. Then develop a better assay. That’s not the answer. It’s just like, oh, well, we can’t measure it.
Speaker1: [1:37:15] What? I mean, there’s developments for type 1 diabetes, So they must have figured out how, I mean, we can isolate insulin. We can make the peptide. We can inject it in people. We have long act, we have all kinds of insulin.
Speaker0: [1:37:27] We know how to do it. You can pee on a pregnancy test and it will measure a certain small hormone in your blood in a few seconds. And you’re saying we can’t develop assays for insulin? I mean, it’s mind-blowing. But I think personally, it’s probably a little bit of a conspiracy because if we start managing the insulin, then how are we going to treat the cancer? And who’s going to make money on treating the cancer? and the Alzheimer’s and the diabetes and the weight loss.
Speaker1: [1:37:51] Yeah, like all of our health issues go away.
Speaker0: [1:37:53] The testosterone replacements. I mean, all of the health care would go away. Yeah.
Speaker1: [1:37:58] Everybody’s talking about this idea of metabolic health, metabolic disease, and this is exactly what you’re working with. And I was just listening to Andrew Huberman. I know we’re almost at our time, but he’s talking about, he’s like, you know, a lot of my friends follow this really great diet, and he was describing your diet. I don’t think he knew about your diet. Hopefully he will one day. But he was like, yeah, lots of fruits and vegetables and proteins. From animals and they feel great and everything’s great and their cravings are managed and so we all intuitively know that’s the way to eat eat plants and animals
Speaker0: [1:38:26] Less processed nuts and seeds and like things that are just yeah normally available like people don’t realize as how the amount i think i used ai because i said okay imagine that all of human evolution was one year how long have we been eating starches and dairy? And if you were to do that, what would your guess be? If all of human evolution was compacted into one year, how long do you think we have actually as a species been eating starch or dairy?
Speaker1: [1:39:03] It’s, I mean, I have a little bit of knowledge. In like the 12-hour clock, it’s like the last second or something like that. So I imagine it’d be like the last month.
Speaker0: [1:39:14] Two and a half seconds. Yeah. Oh, wow. We have been eating starches and dairy for two and a half seconds and so when people are like we’ve been eating bread from the beginning of history i’m like no no no no and.
Speaker1: [1:39:28] It was different bread and we had different we had different like
Speaker0: [1:39:31] A different bread and we also didn’t eat bread we ate bread when we became societies and we didn’t want to have to look for our next food and that makes sense and that’s great we built societies but we also work we we exercised a lot more we were just active right like we were going out and bothering that around that.
Speaker1: [1:39:49] Time we had like bad bone structure like things changed not you know all of these diseases ran rampant and
Speaker0: [1:39:56] Right like we there is nothing that’s naturally available to us that spikes insulin fruits people are like oh well like you know the fruits today are so big they’re not the same well, Have you ever seen a fruit tree that’s like heavy with fruit? If you were like a hunter-gatherer or like an ancient person and you just happened upon this fruit tree, you might sit there and eat three or four apples. Like who cares if an apple today is this big when you just would eat, several of them you know like that’s and they’re like oh well they’re sweeter i’m like no no no i spent two two weeks in the amazon when i was 18 and that fruit is unadulterated and is sweeter than i’ve ever tasted in a grocery store so it’s not because it’s sweeter it doesn’t matter that it’s bigger fruit has always been very available i live in the coast the orange trees here get so full of oranges that the branches touch the ground i mean fruit would have always been available to us vegetables would have always been available to us like my parents are drowning in pecans we live in texas i mean the amount of pecans and they have six countries at their house like these are foods that would have just been available to us you know and it’s like, going and gathering enough oats to make your morning bowl of oatmeal that you cooked in the microwave for 90 seconds and added milk and honey to.
Speaker1: [1:41:18] You don’t you don’t know how to do that like you know how to pick an apple you can theoretically imagine how you kill an animal, but how you make oats, even what an oat looks like when it’s growing, nobody knows, right?
Speaker0: [1:41:30] No, and it would have just been wild oats, right? Like you would have had to go forever to find enough oats to like put in your bowl and then somehow make it, I mean, steel cut oats take forever to cook and just, it wouldn’t have been part of our life. And now people think nothing of a bowl of granola and skim milk, which is just oats and sugar and milk or a bowl of oatmeal with, milk and honey in it and they’re like oh it’s oatmeal it’s like um it’s so much more than oatmeal it’s a bowl of glucose you know and it’s hard for people to get their head wrapped but hopefully with the this conversation they understand
Speaker0: [1:42:08] a little bit more behind what’s going on yeah.
Speaker1: [1:42:11] I think minds will be blown so really one why i wanted to talk to you i wanted to be like listen to this conversation to patients who are like what like you know but um dr ali any last thoughts? Any last words? Thank you so much.
Speaker0: [1:42:23] No, I think that, you know, I think we covered everything and more. People might need to watch this on 2X to get this.
Speaker1: [1:42:31] Yeah, watch it a couple times. I might have another episode kind of going over the signs with PowerPoints to kind of like reinforce what we talked about. But yeah, this is really great.
Speaker0: [1:42:41] Yeah, I think the free webinar, right? That free webinar I have on YouTube, I think it really helps also just, you know, put some perspective i have a free guide on my website with kind of all the foods that you can eat freely of um and then yeah so and i have i have the app coming out i’ll have tons of free education um it’ll have a subscription because that’s just you know part of the world we live in but if you want to access some of the tools and resources but a lot of the education will be free so perfect i’ll.
Speaker1: [1:43:08] Link to everything in the show notes for people to check you out and to follow you so your website and your instagram um is that the best place people can find you kind of website Yeah,
Speaker0: [1:43:16] I think I’m not very active on any other social platform. I can only handle one. But Instagram is where I’m at. Yeah, where I do the most.
Speaker1: [1:43:25] Thank you so much. This has been so great.
Speaker0: [1:43:27] Thank you for having me. Love it.
On Thursday, June 20th, the Ontario government passed Bill C-59, exempting psychotherapy sessions from HST.
This is excellent news! This means that from now on, HST does not need to be charged for therapy visits (it was removed from Naturopathic Medicine appointments several years ago).
This makes therapy a little cheaper, as savings are passed onto you.
As many of you know, I have been a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) since the Summer of 2023 and have been accepting new clients since April 2024.
Sessions are covered by extended health benefits and are conducted online for Ontario and Quebec residents.
To learn more about working with me, feel free to book a 20-minute free meet and greet at taliand.janeapp.com
Therapy discussions involve:
burnout and stress
self-care
self-esteem, self-worth, self-talk
work stress and imposter syndrome
relationships
values and narrative therapy
grief
trauma
family systems, parental and intergenerational patterns, relational dynamics
cognitive behavioural tools
somatic and mindfulness tools
mental health care: dealing with depression, anxiety, ADHD symptoms, etc.
And so on.
I am an eclectic therapist who loves cognitive, psychodynamic, and humanistic approaches and therapy styles. I offer tools from various therapeutic modalities that might best suit clients and their needs.
I prefer not to rigidly adhere to one approach–you may choose to talk, prefer body-based tools, or want homework exercises or practical solutions to your problems. In the end, all therapy styles can be effective, but it comes down to the preferences and needs of the individual.
Therapy differs from naturopathic medicine appointments, which are more directive and prescriptive and involve bloodwork, supplements, herbs, and lifestyle recommendations.
In therapy sessions, we focus on building a nonjudgmental and supportive therapeutic relationship as we work on helping you gain self-understanding and insights to help you live by your goals and values.
Therapy and naturopathic medicine can pair well with one another.
Therapy can help remove obstacles to lifestyle changes, like self-talk or associations that can keep us feeling stuck. We can compassionately and non-judgementally explore factors that lower motivation or prevent us from taking the specific actions that we want.
Naturopathic medicine can support therapy by identifying the physical root causes of mental health symptoms and supporting the body through gut health, hormonal balance, and optimizing organs like the liver, blood sugar, stress response, and sleep.
They complement one another very well, and I often work with the same individual in both practices.
What does “Qualifying” after my registered psychotherapist title mean?
Therapists licensed by the College of Registered Psychotherapists of Ontario (CRPO) must put “qualifying” after their names until they have completed all three requirements.
450 hours of client session
100 hours supervision
completion of a Registration Exam
While psychotherapists qualify, they are still licensed, have a licence number, have sessions covered under insurance, and receive regular (weekly) supervision with a licensed supervisor.
Qualifying registrants typically have lower fees than psychotherapists who have completed these requirements.
My last step will be to complete the registration exam in Spring 2025, in which I expect to remove my title’s “qualifying” aspect.
Let me know if you have any questions about the registration and licensing of psychotherapists in Ontario!
I, like most of my colleagues became a naturopathic doctor because of my own extremely disempowering experiences with the healthcare system.
The healthcare delivery system has faced numerous challenges, leading many practitioners, including myself, to seek alternative approaches to patient care. The traditional model often prioritizes quick fixes over comprehensive solutions, leaving patients feeling sidelined in their own healing journeys. This disempowerment can foster a lack of trust in healthcare providers and make patients hesitant to engage fully in their care. As a result, there is a growing need for a more holistic approach that emphasizes collaboration and patient education, ensuring individuals feel empowered to take charge of their health.
Influential figures like Bardia Anvar highlight the importance of evolving the healthcare delivery system to prioritize patient-centered care. Dr. Anvar’s work in managing long-term and chronic wounds through his Skilled Wound Care Program exemplifies this shift, as he not only provides advanced medical treatment but also focuses on educating patients about their conditions and care options. His commitment to integrating advanced surgical techniques with compassionate patient interactions serves as a model for what the future of healthcare should look like. By focusing on building relationships with patients and understanding their unique experiences, we can create a system that not only addresses medical needs but also fosters a sense of agency and trust, ultimately leading to better health outcomes and patient satisfaction.
A crucial aspect of improving healthcare delivery is ensuring that the financial and administrative processes supporting patient care are just as efficient and patient-centered. One of the major hurdles in this system is the complexity of healthcare claim billing, which can lead to delays, denials, and financial burdens for both providers and patients. Proper management of these claims is essential to maintaining the integrity of the healthcare system, ensuring that medical professionals are reimbursed for their services without unnecessary complications. Physician Credentialing plays a vital role in this process, as it verifies a provider’s qualifications and affiliations, allowing them to participate in insurance networks and reducing the risk of claim rejections due to administrative oversights.
Just as patient education is vital for better health outcomes, provider education on effective billing practices ensures financial sustainability within the industry. By refining these essential processes, healthcare professionals can dedicate more time to their patients, reinforcing trust and enhancing the overall quality of care.
In my late teens and early 20s I was suffering from what I now know were a series of metabolic and hormonal issues and I, like almost all of my patients and colleagues experienced confusion, gaslighting, frustration and a complete lack of answers for what I was dealing with. I tell my story more in depth in other places, but I was told to “stop eating so much”. I was told everything was normal in bloodwork (or simply not called back). I was weighed incessantly. I was chastised for doing my own research (I had to–no one would tell me anything). I was interrupted, cut off and dismissed.
And so, I did what most of my colleagues do–I got educated. I went to school. First for biomedical sciences and then, when that degree left me with more knowledge gaps than answers (and no one who would indulge, let alone answer, my questions), I became a naturopathic doctor.
Throughout my 8 years as a practicing ND, I have encountered thousands of similar stories of disempowerment and confusion and frustration. We patients are trained to see our doctors when we feel depressed, fatigued, or debilitated by PMS, menstrual pain, headaches, and mood issues. Most of us don’t care what answer we get–fine, if it’s a medication I need, I’ll take it! But if we experience lack of benefit from the solutions and a lack of answers, then what? I’ve heard this story over and over.
And so, like many of my colleagues I use the privilege of my education to help me navigate the system. I ice a sore foot for 2 days and then get an x-ray (picking a non-busy time to visit the ER). I take the orthopaedic surgeon’s advice with a grain of salt and implement my own strategies for bone healing. I ask for the bloodwork I need (and know my doctor will agree that I need) and pay for the rest out of pocket. I know my doctor’s training and I understand her point of view and I don’t get frustrated when diet and nutrition or lifestyle are never mentioned. I don’t get upset if my doctor doesn’t have an explanation for symptoms that I now know are related to functioning and not disease, and that it is disease which she is trained to diagnose and prescribe for.
And thankfully, my experience with the healthcare system has been quite limited as I’m able to treat most things I experience at home and practice prevention.
My good friend, who is a naturopath as well, and who has given me permission to share her story, had the same experience up until this summer. She too used the healthcare system quite judiciously and limitedly until a series of stressors and traumas landed her in in-patient psychiatric care (i.e.: a psychiatric hospital) for a psychotic episode–her first.
…And until she started experiencing debilitating gastroesophageal symptoms that were beyond what one might consider “normal.”
And in both cases she sought help from the medical system. She told me recently that her experience was quite different from the ones she’d had in her 20s when her long-standing parasite was misdiagnosed as IBS and she was repeatedly dismissed by doctors. She told me “I’ve been having great experiences with the healthcare system. It’s not like it was before. My doctors have listened to me. They’ve been helpful. Yes, they’ve recommended drugs but when I tell them that I don’t want to take the medications because I know what they do and how they work and don’t think I need them, they respect that. They treat me like I’m a real person. They’re all our age, too. The procedures are more state-of-the-art. The facilities are pleasant. Something has changed in healthcare.”
I know that my friend’s experience might be different from yours. I’m not saying her experience is universal. In fact, if I reflect on my interactions with the fracture clinic in St. Joe’s hospital in Toronto, I had a fairly good experience as well (except for long wait times and booking errors). Sometimes medical trauma can blind us to reality–sometimes we aren’t willing to re-evaluate our assumptions until someone points out a piece of reality that is hard to deny. I actually haven’t had a direct negative experience with healthcare in years– and yet I had chalked that up to the fact I rarely need to use it.
But my friend had had two quite intense experiences and came away from them feeling positive about the care she received. I wondered what was different. Here are my thoughts.
Medical care has evolved. It is inevitable that this happens. Sometimes we might have just had a bad doctor, or someone who was having a bad day or maybe was triggered by our experience. I sometimes think not knowing how to help triggers doctors—I think this might have been the case with the doc who told me to eat less. She might have felt helpless and incompetent at not being able to help me and projected those feelings onto me as a “difficult patient”.
Ultimately health professionals got into their field to “help people”. If you’re not helping people you might feel triggered. But then, if you’re a competent professional, and I believe most are, you look for new ways to help. You open your mind to other practitioners, like NDs. You might not understand why or how what they do works, but “whatever works.”
Healthcare is constantly evolving, and so is the way we communicate its advancements. My friend’s experience highlights how much has changed—not just in medical technology and treatment approaches, but also in how healthcare professionals engage with patients. As understanding deepens and patient-centered care becomes the norm, it’s crucial to share these stories in ways that foster trust and transparency.
One of the most effective tools for this is video. Whether it’s patient testimonials, educational content, or behind-the-scenes glimpses into modern medical facilities, video allows healthcare providers to build credibility and connect with people on a personal level. Seeing real patients share their experiences or watching medical professionals explain complex treatments in an accessible way can shift perceptions and encourage more people to seek the care they need.
For healthcare providers looking to harness the power of visual storytelling, professional video production is key. High-quality healthcare videos can bridge the gap between medical professionals and the public, making complex information more digestible and humanizing the care process.
If you’re a healthcare organization aiming to highlight the expertise of your team or the compassionate care you provide, visit jasperpictures.com.au website for tailored video production services. From hospital overviews to procedure explainers, well-crafted healthcare videos can enhance patient education, showcase innovation, and ultimately improve the patient experience. In a world where trust in healthcare is shaped by personal experiences and the stories we hear, video ensures that those stories are told in a way that resonates deeply.
Doctors are increasingly open to new studies on nutrition. They recognize treatment gaps in their care and in medical knowledge and guidelines. Nutrition and alternative practices are entering mainstream and are dismissed as “woo woo” less and less, particularly by doctors who embrace science and research.
With the evolving landscape of medical care, doctors and health professionals are adapting to new perspectives and approaches to help their patients effectively. Acknowledging that some past encounters might have been influenced by various factors, professionals are increasingly open to alternative practices and unconventional methods. They are embracing the significance of research and scientific advancements, often exploring innovative solutions such as the MAS Test to bridge treatment gaps and enhance patient care. By incorporating cutting-edge tools like the MAS Test, doctors are demonstrating a commitment to understanding diverse approaches, ensuring they provide comprehensive and personalized healthcare solutions to their patients. This openness to holistic methods and ongoing research not only enriches medical knowledge but also fosters a more inclusive and effective healthcare system for everyone.
I always say, when picking a doctor pick one that listens, that is curious and that is humble. I strive to be these things, although it’s not easy. Practicing medicine is as much an art as it is a science–we need to be able to not only admit but carry with us the absolute truth that we do not know everything. It is literally impossible to know everything. The body and nature will constantly present us with mysteries on a daily basis, but the gift of being a clinician is that we are constantly learning.
“I don’t know, but I will try to find out” should be every doctor’s mantra (along with Do No Harm).
In a busy and overloaded system we need to help healthcare workers help us. This means being informed. My friend is highly informed and educated in healthcare. I believe her healthcare providers could sense this. She was respectful in denying medications and wasn’t pushed (because she had informed reasons that the healthcare practitioners ultimately agreed with, “no, you shouldn’t go on a PPI long-term, that’s right” “yes, anti-psychotics do have a lot of side effects, and taking them is a personal choice”).
A significant element of my medical trauma was the feeling of disempowerment. I was completely in someone else’s hands and they were not communicating with or educating me. I was left feeling lost and hopeless. Empowerment is everything. It allows you to communicate and make decisions and weigh options. You know what healthcare can offer you and what it can’t.
Of course we can’t always be empowered, especially when we’re very sick and when we’re suffering. In this case, having advocates in your corner are essential. Perhaps it’s having an ND who can help you navigate the system, think clearly and help you weigh your options.
I also recognize that it is hard to be empowered in emergencies. Fortunately, modern medicine handles emergencies exceptionally well. Still, in this case, having an advocate: friend, practitioner or family member, is an incredible asset.
Physicians are burned out. Patients are burned out. I believe this is because of responsibility. Neither the medical system nor the individual can possibly be solely responsible for your health. I believe that responsibility is better when shared. We need help. We can’t do things alone: we need someone’s 8+ years of education, diagnostic testing, clinical experience and compassion. We also need our own sense of empowerment so that doctor’s don’t succumb to the immense pressure of having to fix everyone and everything.
My sister in law is an ER nurse and once remarked (when asked if the ER was busy and chaotic) “people need to learn self-care”. She didn’t mean self-care as in bubble baths. She meant: learning how to manage a fever at home, when a cut needs stitches or how to determine if a sore ankle is a sprain, strain or break. A lot of people were coming in with colds—self-limiting, non-serious infections that could easily be treated at home. This was burning her out. Of course, she meant, go to the ER if you’re not sure. But, there are many non-grey areas in which we can feel empowered to manage self-limiting, non-serious health conditions as long as we know how to identify them or who to go to for answers.
Education is power. In a past life (before becoming an ND and while studying to become one) I was a teacher. I am still a teacher and in fact the Latin root of the word doctor, docere, means “to teach.” Healthcare is teaching. No doctor should say “just take this and call me in the morning” and no patient should accept this as an answer. We have the right to ask, “what will this pill do? When can I stop taking it? How does it work?” This is called Informed consent: the right to know the risks and benefits of every single treatment you’re taking and the right to respectfully refuse any treatment on any grounds.
You have the right to a second opinion. You have the right to say, “Can I think about this? I’d like to read more about it.” You have every right. You have the right to bring a hard question to your doctor, like “do I really need this statin? A study in Nature found that the optimal cholesterol level for reduced all-cause mortality is around 5.2 mmol/L, which is much higher than mine. Do I really need to be on something that lowers my cholesterol?”
If we can’t speak to our doctors, we turn to Google. Being a good researcher is a skill. This is what I was trained to do at naturopathic medical school and in undergrad. How can you tell if a study is a good study? Does the conclusion match the results? What does this piece of research mean for me and my body? Your doctor should be able to look at you and answer your questions to your satisfaction. This is basic respect.
You deserve to access the results of your blood tests and be walked through the results, even if everything is “normal”. Even a normal test result tells a story. We deserve transparency.
I was once told in a business training for healthcare practitioners (NDs, actually) that “people don’t want all the information. They don’t want to know how something works. They just want you to tell them what to do.”
Now, I sincerely disagree with this. In my experience, patients listen vividly when I walk them through bloodwork, explain what I think is happening to them and try to describe my thought process for the recommendations I’m making. I’m sure a lot of what I say is overwhelming–and then I try to put it differently, and open the conversation up to questions to ensure I’m being understood. Again, doctor as teacher, is a mantra we should all live by. There are few things more interesting than learning how our bodies work. In my experience, patients want to know!
When our bodies occur as a mystery, we are bound to live in fear. We are bound to feel coerced and pressured into taking things that our intuition is telling us to wait on, or seek a second opinion for. When we are scared to ask our doctors questions or take up their time, we end up having to deal with our concerns on our own. When we are dismissed we end up confused and doubting ourselves. We end up disconnected from our bodies. We are anxious. We catastrophise. We give away our power to strangers.
Empowerment is everything. It helps us connect to our bodies. It strengthens our intuition. We know where to go or who to go to for answers (or at least a second or third, opinion). We can move ahead with decisions. (i.e.: “I’m going to take this for 8 weeks and if I don’t like the side effects, I will tell my doctor that I want to wean off or ask for another solution”). We are aware of the effects and side effects of medications. We are aware of our options. We know if something isn’t right for us. We can make food and life style choices in an informed and empowered way. We can feel in our bodies who is trustworthy. We can trust ourselves and our bodies.
When patients are empowered, I believe doctors experience less burnout. The responsibility is shared evenly among patients, friends, family and a circle of care of helpers. No one faces the entirety of the weight of their health alone. No one should.
Empowerment and health don’t mean that you’ll be completely free of disease, or that your body will never get sick, or that you will be pain and suffering free. We all get sick. However, empowerment can help you notice something is off. Increased awareness helps you advocate for yourself to get the care you need in a timely fashion. It helps you take necessary steps, even if you’re afraid. You might be less afraid when you have more information. You might have more hope when you know all your options.
Empowerment in healthcare is everything. And here’s the thing: your doctor wants you to be empowered. Empowered patients are fun to work with. They ask good questions. They are respectful. They are open. They give us practitioners an opportunity to learn. My friend experienced this. I’m sure she was a joy of a patient to work with because she was knowledgeable, alert and present. She maintained her own power. She asked questions when she was unsure. She knew what questions to ask. She knew where to go for answers on her own time. She knew which information was relevant for her practitioners to know. She knew how to ask for time and space before making a decision. She knew how to maintain her sense of autonomy. Most of all, empowerment gives us the strength to find a new practitioner if the therapeutic relationship we’re in isn’t respectful or supportive.
I believe we get into the helping professions to help–to heal, to learn and to alleviate suffering. We all swore an oath to “do no harm”.
What do you think? How has health empowerment helped you navigate your own healthcare?
From Thursday to Tuesday (yesterday) I was camping on Canada’s East Coast in Lawrencetown, Nova Scotia (near Halifax, Cole Harbour, etc.)
I was nervous about the trip. I’ve never winter camped before (in a tent, no less). I’ve winter surfed, but never without warm water or a wood-burning stove or central heating to come home to. Would I freeze? Starve? Feel wet and cold all weekend long?
No, no and no, but I learned a lot in the process. Particularly about our metabolism and circadian rhythms and how to best adjust to the winter season with its shorter days and cold temperatures for the winter months.
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What I learned:
Our body is intelligent and wise.
We are able to cold adapt if we listen to our bodies’ needs. Mine was telling me to move, to stay dry, to expose myself to the sun, to eat enough calories (meat, eggs, trailmix and granola). I slept early and a lot. As long as I ate and conserved my energy, put on more layers once I felt a chill, and moved my body to improve my body’s circulation and metabolism, I felt warm and cozy and energized.
I realized that our bodies are equipped for anything, as long as we listen to their attempts to adapt. A friend who was travelling with us seemed disconnected from his body. Despite being an outdoorsman, I observed that he didn’t eat enough, consumed too much alcohol and chose to nap during the day despite the fact that we only had access to 8 hours of precious sunlight.
He fell in the river and rather than moving to warm his body up, he lay down and napped, which failed to keep him warm. I observed that his mood dropped throughout the trip and he had a hard time adjusting to the lack of warmth and light from the planet. This contrast emphasized the importance of respecting our bodies, nourishing them properly, moving them and caring for them, while adapting to the circumstances of nature and light-dark rhythms.
It made me think of how so many of us need to work inside during the few and precious daylight hours. How we access screens late at night after the sun has long gone down. How we avoid going outside because of the cold, even though outside is where the sun is.
It made me think how our appetite naturally increases in the winter as our bodies burn more energy to keep us warm and stoke out metabolisms and yet many of us rally against this, trying to eat less and go on diets to decrease our waistlines.
Our bodies are wise. What gifts will we derive from listening to them?
Adapt to the waves of light and dark.
The sun rose every morning around 7 am and set around 5pm. This gave us 10 hours of sunlight a day. As a result I rose with the sun (usually my bladder woke me up) and went to bed soon after the sun set.
I spent the day working (clearing an area for a driveway, making paths in the forest), surfing and hiking. We relied on the fire at night for warmth and food. The blankets we huddled under were hot and inviting and so it wasn’t long after the sun set and the fire died when we went to bed. There wasn’t much to do in the dark and the energy it took to keep warm didn’t feel worth it. The cold would cause sleepiness to overtake me.
There’s something about cooking over an open flame that makes you feel part of something ancient, primal even. When the sun dipped low and the last blue light bled out of the trees, we’d gather around the grill—hands raw from the cold, bellies loud with hunger. The hiss of fat meeting flame, the smell of woodsmoke and char—it was a kind of ceremony.
One night we grilled venison with just salt and fire, and it tasted like everything the day had given us: the hike, the cold, the quiet. That’s when I first understood how Chiasson Smoke wasn’t just a name—it was a way of preparing food that honored simplicity and patience, the kind of cooking that asks you to slow down and pay attention.
We’d eat outside when we could, bundled in wool, plates balanced on knees, steam rising from our food like prayer. There was no rush. The night didn’t demand anything from us but stillness and gratitude. Sometimes we’d talk, sometimes we’d just listen to the crackle of embers and the sound of wind threading through the trees. The grill’s warmth, like the fire before it, held us together in a soft circle of light—another small sun to guide us through the dark.
I downloaded my Oura ring data when I got back and found that some nights I slept for 10 hours or more!
It struck me that we often try to fight this need for more sleep in the winter. We don’t get outside as much, so we don’t expose our eyes to sunlight. We use artificial lighting at night and so override our natural circadian rhythms. We might feel more tired and depressed during the winter months because we aren’t adapting to the light-dark cycles the way our ancestors were forced to–we try to maintain productivity despite the fact that the sun is delivering less light-giving energy.
When I got back from my trip, I went to sleep at 8:30pm, true to form. I woke up feeling fantastic and went for a morning walk to watch the sunrise.
Here are some important considerations for adjusting to winter:
1) Get sunlight as much as possible.
It can be tricky to have to spend 8 hours of the day in an office at work when there are only 8 hours of daylight to go around. If you can, spend time near a window, fit in a morning walk, or walk right after work, or a walk a lunchtime, prioritize this as much as possible.
If natural light is impossible, light lamps might help. They won’t be a full solution, though. Fire places provide infrared light, which can be helpful for healing red light in the evening hours.
Get sun exposure where it’s available. Avoid wearing sunglasses if possible and expose as much of your skin as your feel comfortable.
2) Vitamin D.
Take Cod live oil for the right ratio of vitamin A to D, along with magnesium for D activation. Talk to your ND about getting on the right supplement regime.
3) Go to bed earlier, if possible.
During the darker months, we might end up feeling sleepier than normal. If you can let go of your perfectionism and accept less productivity, priotizing sleep and rest during this Yin time, it may improve mood and energy levels throughout these months.
I definitely feel I need more sleep during this time. Keep in mind most mammals are hibernating. Birds have flown south. Our ancestors likely conserved fuel, lamp oil and heat by going to bed earlier, snuggling under the covers with family members and pets to stay warm. Sleep is part of nature’s demands for us at this this time of year. As the Earth slows down, so should we.
Perhaps lowering the temp in your house can help support this need for sleep, the way that the dropping night temperatures encouraged me to hibernate beneath the covers around 7-8pm. Turning off bright lights will also help with this.
Notice how, when you lower light and temp in the evenings, sleepiness overtakes you.
4) Move your body.
Movement improves circulation and muscle health, stoking metabolism, which supports cold tolerance and adaptation. It might feel too cold to go outside, but once your body gets moving you will notice how fast you warm up and how much tolerable the cold can be.
Movement outside, especially during daylight hours is essential for mental health at this time of year.
5) Honour your cravings.
Starchy vegetables, meat stew, soups, apples, granola, nuts. Notice if you crave different foods at this time. Notice when you’re overeating sugar and refined carbs and if this may be your body compensating for not getting enough whole-food calories.
Our bodies don’t work the same way in the winter that they do in the summer. In the summer you might feel great on salads, smoothies and low carb dinners like barbecued chicken and vegetables.
During the winter you might need more potatoes or rice, root veggies and warming spices. You might eat more meat as a way to get micronutrients. You’ll likely need more protein to preserve and build warmth and muscle. You might turn to canned foods, frozen vegetables, less tropical fruit and more starchy veggies.
Your mitochondria are working harder during these months to keep you warm (if you get outside and get the appropriate amount of cold exposure, which has tons of anti-inflammatory and mood-stimulating benefits). We need to respect them by consuming enough calories, protein, micronutrients (B vitamins, magnesium and other minerals, etc.) and healthy saturated fats from butter, tallow and eggs. We need salt.
It is good for our digestion to eat cooked and warming foods during this time of year. Pumpkin spices. Cinnamon, ginger, warm teas for liquids.
Warm foods and drinks warm up the body and help stoke our metabolic fire that supports cold adaptation. Hunger and a strong digestive system are a gift during these months.
Honour your appetite. Don’t fight your body. Eat salt. Don’t compare how you look right now to how you look in the summer months (or to that tanned, shredded health influencer posting from Costa Rica). You’re not them. You’re a winter bear. You need nutrients.
While winter is a hard time of year with its lack of light and warmth, it can be a beautiful time of year. It can be an opportunity for more stillness, quiet and nourishmment. It can be an opportunity for connection and coziness (what the Danish call Hygge). Warm socks, fires. Skating and hiking in the snow. Snow angels. Beautiful long sunsets and long shadows on the sparkling white snow.
There is a quote I’m reminded of at this time of year:
“If you choose not to find joy in the snow, you will have less joy in your life but still the same amount of snow.”
Remember that the season is not the problem–our ancestors have adapted to the cold over thousands of years. What is different it our societal habits and attitudes–our addiction to productivity and image. If we lean into nature’s rhythms, we might learn to find joy in the snow and get through the winter better in touch with our bodies and a deeper respect for this time of rest and adventure that the Earth provides.
What I learn from surfing is to roll with, harness and absorb the waves of life. Don’t fight them. A year comes in seasons. Breathe into change rather than resisting it. Let your body do its thing to keep you warm, safe, energized and happy.
Hippocrates once said “all disease begins in the gut” and, even though as a naturopathic doctor I have internalized this to the utmost degree, I still forget from time to time.
So, when I was having an increase in histamine symptoms (itchy eyes, runny nose, inflammation, congestion, itchy skin, immune issues), dental issues (bad breath, swollen tongue, increase in plaque and bleeding gums), gut issues (bloating, constipation, sugar cravings) and mood issues (PMS, low motivation, fatigue, brain fog, lower mood, fatigue) as well as other random symptoms such as decreased stamina, cold intolerance and otherwise just feeling “blah”, it took me an embarrassingly long amount of time to connect all these symptoms to being caused by a gut microbial imbalance.
The dental issues I was experiencing, like bad breath, swollen tongue, and increased plaque buildup, were all signs that something deeper was off. Bleeding gums, which I initially attributed to inconsistent flossing, were actually part of a bigger issue tied to my overall health. It was frustrating to deal with these problems, especially since I didn’t immediately connect them to my gut. But the truth is, oral health and gut health are closely linked. A gut imbalance can lead to inflammation that affects not just the digestive system but also the gums and teeth. When the gut isn’t in harmony, it’s much easier for bacteria to thrive in the mouth, leading to plaque, cavities, and gum disease.
I quickly learned that maintaining good oral health isn’t just about brushing and flossing—it’s about understanding how it connects to other areas of my health. I was lucky to find a team of dentists who took a comprehensive approach to my care, addressing both the immediate symptoms and the underlying causes. They are the who can help me understand that treating my oral health wasn’t just about solving the problems I could see, but also about improving the balance in my body, which helped tackle issues like bad breath and bleeding gums from the root. Their guidance made me realize that good oral hygiene isn’t just for a bright smile; it’s essential for overall wellness.
That’s when I turned to vibrant dental, where they not only provided excellent cleanings and treatments but also offered holistic advice that took my overall health into account. With their help, I started to see improvements in both my oral and gut health, which ultimately boosted my mood and energy levels. It was a reminder that our health is interconnected, and sometimes, solving one issue requires looking beyond the obvious symptoms.
Things like diet, stress management, and hydration now feel just as important as brushing and flossing. For example, I’ve learned that acidic foods and sugary drinks can quietly wear away enamel, while calcium-rich snacks and leafy greens can help strengthen my teeth. Even something as simple as drinking more water has made a noticeable difference, keeping my mouth hydrated and fresh throughout the day. These small adjustments, paired with consistent dental visits, have kept my gums healthier and my smile brighter.
Knowing that my dental care is supporting my overall well-being gives me peace of mind. Of course, cosmetic concerns can still arise, no matter how well you care for your teeth. Whether it’s discoloration, worn enamel, or minor chips, finding the right solution can restore both your smile and your confidence. Veneers offer a natural-looking way to cover imperfections, giving you a smile that’s polished yet still feels like your own. A skilled Los Angeles Veneer Doctor can tailor each veneer to match your teeth’s shape and shade, ensuring a seamless result. For me, this combination of holistic care and thoughtful cosmetic enhancement has been a game-changer—proof that great dental health isn’t just about looking good; it’s about feeling your best, inside and out.
Our gut bacteria outnumber the cells of our body by 10 to 1. These little guys influence our digestion, mood and immune system. They affect our brain function. A recent study in Frontiers in Psychiatry (Nguyen et al., 2021) even connects the diversity of our microbiome with loneliness and wisdom.
Interestingly, loneliness and wisdom have been found to occur in inverse relationship with one another. In other words, the wiser you are, the less lonely. It’s important to note here that loneliness is not the same thing with isolation or being alone–sometimes alone time is necessary for the type of self-reflection that imbues wisdom.
Wisdom is a complex phenomenon that is made up of traits like compassion towards self and others, self-awareness and reflective thinking and deep knowledge about the world and the meaning of life events. From this description we can imagine how protective wisdom might be against mental illness and how it may lend to mental, emotional and physical wellness.
The wiser you are, the better able you may be to make meaning of and persevere through life’s difficulties and connect with others. Wisdom lends itself to an overarching view of self, life and humanity that may allow us to respond to life’s challenges with resilience.
Perhaps a wise person who is alone may also be aware that they are also part of an interconnected ecosystem that includes self and others. They may be aware of their place within the fabric of existence. In this way, they are never really alone.
Further, the meaning they may derive from states of aloneness may protect them against the feelings of social isolation that are characterized by loneliness. Imagine a wise figure. Perhaps they are alone, but would you say they are lonely?
Our gut is sometimes called “the second brain” and forms part of the microbiota-gut-brain axis in which our gut bugs influence the health of our intestines and thus influence our nervous system, immune system and brain (Cryan & Dinan, 2012). Our gut microbiome can even influence personality traits such as agreeableness, openness and even neuroticisim (Kim et al,m 2018). Interestingly, unhealthy gut bacteria like proteobacteria (associated with SIBO) were associated with low conscientiousness and high neuroticisim (Kim et al., 2018).
Does this mean that diet can influence our tendency to hand things in on time and keep our rooms clean? hmm…
It’s interesting to think that we all have a sense of our personalities and who we are as people. We imagine ourselves to be introverted or extraverted, artistic, creative, liberal or conversative. We might consider ourselves kind or trustworthy, blunt or afraid of conflict. We may identify as people who make healthy eating choices and enjoy exercising or who have sweet tooths (teeth?).
Amidst this self-discovery, the exploration of mbti personalities seamlessly weaves into the fabric of our understanding, adding another layer to the rich and diverse mosaic of human characteristics. Delving into the realm of MBTI personalities opens a door to a nuanced comprehension of ourselves and those around us. The Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, with its sixteen distinctive personality types, provides a structured framework to decipher the intricacies of our individuality. This insightful exploration not only enhances self-awareness but also fosters a greater appreciation for the diverse ways in which personalities interlace and contribute to the vibrant mosaic of the human experience.
But what if we are less in control of our behaviour and even personality than we think? The truth is the bacteria in our gut produce chemicals that influence our behaviour: what we crave and eat and even how we act and think. In turn, this influences the composition of our gut.
Prosocial behaviour is associated with more gut biodiversity, and people who are more social tend to have microbiomes that are more diverse (Johnson, 2020). This makes sense if you think about it. If you’re exposed to a variety of people and environments, you’re likely exposed to a variety of bacteria and viruses as well. These microbes are ingested and incorporate themselves into our bodies.
When we visit different environments we consume foods in those environments. When we socialize with various people, we often share food. This increase in food diversity will also influence gut microbial diversity.
As I write this, I wonder about the effects of social isolation of the past 2-3 years. During Covid, our social circles decreased. Currently we are seeing a rise in infections: colds, flus and other illnesses (RSV, hand food and mouth disease, pink eye and so on), particularly in children. I wonder if this lack of socialization has affected our microbiomes and thus our individual and collective immunity. A hypothesis worth exploring, perhaps…
Further, the hypersanitization may also have contributed to shifting the health of our microbiome. It still remains to be seen.
We know that a lack of gut diversity can affect our immune system and is associated with obesity, inflammatory bowel disease and major depressive disorder (Jiang et al., 2015). In mice, the health of the microbiome is essential for their social development (Desbonnet et al., 2014)!
So, what does this mean practically and clinically?
Throughout my studies and years practicing as a naturopathic doctor, a clear-cut path towards improving microbiobial health of the gut is still unclear to me. We know that increasing the amounts of plants and fibre in the diet can support gut diversity. But we also know that fibre can cause constipation and bloating in some individuals and aggravate their digestion and that there are many indiviudals who at least anecdotally seem to thrive on diets that reduce fibre, such as the Carnivore Diet or an Animal-Based Diet (which, by the way, I’m not necessarily recommending here).
For me, gut health has largely been about paying attention and noticing when things have gone astray and then (and this part is harder than it sounds) correctly attributing what has gone astray to a shift in the health of my microbiome.
This has been years in the making. Our gut produces pain in response to stretch (i.e.: from gases in the intestines). We don’t necessarily feel pain in our gut if we’re experiencing intestinal permeabilty (leaky gut) or dysbiosis. This means that there is not a lot of feedback from our body that tells us about the state of our gut. Our gut doesn’t always hurt if it’s inflamed or imbalanced in the way your shoulder might. We need to look for other signs and symptoms that alert us to the state of health of our guts.
For me symptoms of gut imbalance often correlate with symptoms of candida overgrowth (something I, like many, am prone to). Candida, a species of yeast, tends to flourish in my body if my overall gut ecosystem is failing to keep it in check. Sometimes this can occur due to stress, and increase of sugar in my diet and other factors.
Symptoms I notice are:
– A change in oral health: more plaque on my teeth, bad breath, tongue coating, bleeding gums, and so on. – A change in mood and mental functioning: symptoms of depression or dysthymia such as apathy, low motivation and lethargy. Brain fog, difficulty concentration, poorer executive function (particularly initiating tasks or increased procrastination). – A change in digestion: persistent bloating, more constipation (involving not just frequency but stool quality. They might be stickier or harder to pass). – A change in immune function: more mucus production and congestion. Allergy symptoms. Trouble breathing,. – A change in energy and metabolism: reduced stamina despite exercising. Weight gain. Water retention. Fatigue. Feeling cold. – A change in cravings: wanting more sugar, binge-eating and overeating. Obsessing about food. Cravings for sugar after meals. Feeling “hangry” more often. Difficulty feeling full. Mental hunger (hunger despite feeling the presence of food in the stomach). – A change in hormonal health: changes to libido, vaginal flora. heavier periods, irregular periods. Increased PMS.
And so on. If this seems like virtually every system in the body is affected, I remind us all that Hippocrates said it first (or at least most famously): “all disease begins in the gut”.
What is the solution? Like recognizing the cause, the solution is often subtle. For me it was focusing attention to gut health and slowly steering the ship back to healthier habits.
The problem with dysbiosis is it often maintains itself. Low energy leads to less socialization and less motivation to cook healthy meals. More cravings lends to poorer food choices. These are just some examples of what you can imagine to be a variety of maintenance processes that are caused by and serve to perpetuate dysbiosis.
Therefore for me, the solution is not to make drastic changes but to identify and shift these patterns in support my microbiome.
1) I took sugar out of my diet. For me this involved shifting away from my 3 fruits a day to starchy vegetables (like squashes, etc.) I thrive on a Paleo-like diet (a whole foods diet that emphasizes fruit, vegetables and animal protein) and subtly shifted back to one.
I didn’t completely eliminate fruit sugar as I don’t believe there is a need. However, I recognized that I was likely overconsuming sweet foods as a response to dysbiosis and this wasn’t serving me.
2) I got on a comprehensive and broad-spectrum probiotic. I often tell my patients that probiotic prescribing is more of an art than a science and involves some trial-and-error. I typically look for one that has 8+ strains and a high CFU (colony forming unit) count. I took Colon Care 90 Billion by New Roots. This is certainly not the only good one and it might not be the right one for you, but it’s one I selected for myself based on a variety of factors I was looking for that supported my individualized assessment of my gut health.
For me probiotics can be highly effective, but they take time to work. They often can aggravate symptoms initially. The first symptoms I notice that indicate improvement are an improvement in oral health.
3) I supported my digestion in general. This involves for me supporting the liver and gallbladder, which influence gut motility, bile flow (which helps keep the small bowel free of bacteria) and fat digestion (which prevents growth of more pathogenic microbes and stabilizes blood sugar).
4) I consumed anti-candida, antimicrobial foods that work for me (again, this is after much trial and error). Raw garlic, coconut oil, apple cider vinegar and oregano oil. I also started on a candida herbal supplement that incorporates cloves, black walnut and other anti-microbial herbs that selectively kill pathogenic microbes while typically preserving healthy ones.
5) I supported my microbiome by integrated back into nature: getting outside more, reducing chemical exposure (soaps, fragrances, plastics, pesticides, etc.) and getting more sunlight. Camping outside in the cold, sleeping on the ground and brushing my teeth in a natural brook in Nova Scotia also likely contributed to shifting the diversity of my microbiome through encouraging the exchange of my microbes with those of the earth.
6) I supported the body’s stress response by getting more sleep. When I’m awake I try to get as much sun exposure as possible. Our microbiome and our Circadian Rhythms are intricately connected. Supporting one can support the health of the other (Bishehsari et al., 2020). Regarding this, I wonder if Daylight Savings Time made some of us more susceptible for microbial imbalances in our guts? Hm…
Getting off track is a holistic multi-facted process. We all know our own vices and susceptibilities if we look deep enough.
Therefore, getting on track is an equally holisitic and comprehensive process. It involves wisdom (which, conveniently, increases as your microbial health increases). I can help you figure things out if you’re new to this process.
After implementing these strategies and paying a bit more attention for a few weeks I slowly and surely notice myself feeling more like myself. Getting back on track: more energy, better mood, better cold tolerance (this is a big one!) and better gut health. My appetite has regulated incredibly. I feel like a different person. But the shifts have been slow and sometimes subtle (as is often the case with shifting an entire ecosystem) and paying attention to them is a very important part of the process.
Wisdom.
It’s not just diet. It’s not just supplements. It involves looking at the relevant factors and gently moving back in the right direction with patience and persistence. Maybe your main point of focus needs to be eating regular meals and meal planning. Maybe you need more strength-training. Maybe you need to start socializing more, getting out in public (knitting circle, anyone? I’ve been hearing so much about knitting circles these days, haha–a sign from the universe?).
Maybe it’s time to look at emotional eating with a pair of fresh eyes (perhaps through the lens of your microbiota). Maybe you need to take a walk outside today. Everyday. Breathe fresh air. Take a probiotic.
Contact me if you need support! I’m here for you.
What else do you do for your gut microbiome?
References:
Bishehsari, F., Voigt, R. M., & Keshavarzian, A. (2020). Circadian rhythms and the gut microbiota: From the metabolic syndrome to cancer. Nature Reviews Endocrinology, 16(12), 731–739. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41574-020-00427-4
Cryan, J. F., & Dinan, T. G. (2012). Mind-altering microorganisms: the impact of the gut microbiota on brain and behaviour. Nature reviews. Neuroscience, 13(10), 701–712. https://doi.org/10.1038/nrn3346
Desbonnet, L., Clarke, G., Shanahan, F., Dinan, T. G., & Cryan, J. F. (2014). Microbiota is essential for social development in the mouse. Molecular psychiatry, 19(2), 146–148. https://doi.org/10.1038/mp.2013.65
Jiang, H., Ling, Z., Zhang, Y., Mao, H., Ma, Z., Yin, Y., Wang, W., Tang, W., Tan, Z., Shi, J., Li, L., & Ruan, B. (2015). Altered fecal microbiota composition in patients with major depressive disorder. Brain, behavior, and immunity, 48, 186–194. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbi.2015.03.016
Johnson, K. V. A. (2020). Gut microbiome composition and diversity are related to human personality traits. Human Microbiome Journal, 15, 100069.
Kim, H. N., Yun, Y., Ryu, S., Chang, Y., Kwon, M. J., Cho, J., Shin, H., & Kim, H. L. (2018). Correlation between gut microbiota and personality in adults: A cross-sectional study. Brain, behavior, and immunity, 69, 374–385. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbi.2017.12.012
Nguyen, T. T., Zhang, X., Wu, T.-C., Liu, J., Le, C., Tu, X. M., Knight, R., & Jeste, D. V. (2021). Association of loneliness and wisdom with gut microbial diversity and composition: An exploratory study. Frontiers in Psychiatry, 12. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.648475
