On Pet Loss, Crossing the Rainbow Bridge, and The Places Grief Lives
My grief is tremendous, but my love is bigger.
– Cheryl Strayed
For my entire childhood, I wanted a dog. I didn’t care what kind of dog it was; I just wanted one. A sensitive child entering the world of broken promises and ruptured friendships, I craved the unconditional love of an animal. I would read to him and tell her about school: my dissociated teachers, the kids who had hurt my feelings, and my dreams and aspirations. I imagined he would sit there, forever interested, lovingly listening.
My parents promised my brother and me a puppy when I was nine and he was six. Instead, we got hamsters, gerbils, fish, and turtles.
After spending Christmas with my family in Canada, I returned to Bogota, Colombia, with my ex-boyfriend, Joe. I was 24 years old and taught English for two years out of university. I walked into our shared apartment, set down my things, looked up, and there he was! A tiny, black and tan Yorkshire terrier—Coco Loco.
I sat with him across my lap. He tucked his little head inside the crook of my elbow—lights out. His soft head and cold, wet nose tickled the inside of my arm. He and I would sit this way, my arms around his curled-up body, his head tucked—yoked together in warmth and comfort until his last day.
Small, rambunctious and mischievous, Coco was a ferocious ball of unbridled puppy joy. He chewed everything, peed everywhere, and once unravelled an entire roll of toilet paper while waiting for me to get out of the shower.
We walked everywhere in Bogota. He travelled on buses and accompanied Joe and me on long hikes through the Colombian jungles and countryside, harassing chickens and balancing on logs stretched over deep, rushing streams. He was curious and intelligent, head cocked, ears alert, always with some agenda.
When it was time for me to leave Bogota and return to Toronto to start naturopathic college, Coco flew with me. Emerging from the confines of his travels, he was soon bounding around my parents’ yard, paws touching new soil. He loved Canada: the snow, the squirrels, his family. He grew to be 16 pounds, giant for a Yorkie.
For the next 15 years, Coco was my faithful shadow. He was there throughout my four years at the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine, witnessing me studying for and passing my board exams. Coco joined me on the ride to the centre for the first round of board exams, perched on my knees. As we pulled into the parking lot, he sensed my anxiety and started shaking. He was my emotional mirror, our bodies empathically in tune.
He watched me graduate and start my clinical practice. He saw me fall in and out of love, move, try and fail, and try again, his nose nudging my tears after every heartbreak and disappointment.
My naturopathic medicine practice moved online in 2020, and I became a psychotherapist in 2024. Coco was at my feet during every patient encounter, absorbing all your stories and witnessing your humanity.
For 11 years, Coco volunteered as a St. John’s Ambulance Therapy Dog. Once a week, he would proudly wait for my dad by the door in his uniform—a bandana that read, “Please Pet Me.” They’d roam the hospital halls, bringing cheer to patients and burnt-out staff.
In a blog I kept while at the Canadian College of Naturopathic Medicine, I wrote many posts about how Coco taught me to live. He brought me fully into my kinship with nature. We hiked through parks in Toronto and logged hundreds of kilometres on the Bruce Trail. I remember him gliding ahead along the narrow path, light streaming through the trees, an orchestra of birds punctuating the quiet rhythm of our footsteps and breath, hearts held by the magnanimous life that was all around.
Dogs offer us a pure form of love and connection. Their unconditional love can soothe the wounds accumulated from our imperfect human attachments.
They are grounded, noses connected to the Earth. And this grounding keeps their lives in the moment, up for adventure, and free from the overthinking and neurosis that block our trust and joy.
Dogs remind us of our ancient history, when we lived in tune with nature’s frequencies, a time long forgotten but deeply missed. Dogs’ presence tells us the truth: the doors on our cages and cubicles are unlocked. We are still wild. And the earth patiently awaits our return.
Nature has guided me through pain and heartache. When I lose touch with myself, I return to the beach and the forest to find it. Coco taught me this.
He brought me to the forest, set me free, and left me there. He died on April 22, 2025. And I’ve returned many times to find him among the roots, the leaves, and the joy of other dogs living fully, who love their lives enough to lose them.
Over a year ago, Coco stopped eating. As the vet was running tests, my stomach turned over with anguish. He was diagnosed with an inflammatory bowel disease, and his prognosis was poor. But, despite their size and teddy bear appearance, terriers are persistent, tenacious fighters. After a few days of steroids, antibiotics, and a special diet, Coco miraculously bounced back. Still, the vet cautioned that he would likely need to be on prednisone and his condition closely monitored for the rest of his life.
Over the next year, Coco stoically trudged on. He kept up his fighting spirit until his last day—terriers never give up. Although duller and more easily fatigued, he motored along Great Lakes beaches and hiked in Nova Scotia. When he could no longer walk much, he rolled around in his dog stroller or rode on my back. When he was too tired to lift his head, I sometimes walked alone.
The prednisone thinned his fur, whithered his muscles, and messed with his sleep. I had to carry him up and downstairs, help him stand, and carry him outside. Each night, at two, three, four in the morning, sometimes several times a night, I would haul myself out of bed, nauseous with exhaustion, to take him out. I would fumble for my keys and coat in the darkness, and we would stand outside, wordlessly shivering with cold. I would wait for him, watching the snow blow in the glow of the street lamps, my body begging to return to the warmth of my bed.
Other nights, I was too late and calmly cleaned his mess while he watched me, confused and ashamed.
Eventually, the vet confirmed his kidneys were failing. He stopped keeping his food down. He began coughing and struggling to breathe. His heart was failing.
When referring to putting down a pet, people will tell you you’ll know the right time. They will tell you a dog won’t get up, or they’ll stop eating. Or, the vet will confirm it, waking you from your indecision and denial. Sometimes old dogs will pass peacefully in their sleep. Most likely, however, you will have to decide when, where, and how to end your best friend’s life.
Euthanasia is an impossible choice, like cutting off a part of yourself to spare the whole. Coco couldn’t tell me in words what he wanted, but if he could, how could one choose a road unseen, with the destination unknown? When pets die, the poem goes, they cross the Rainbow Bridge. Beyond the bridge lies a lush, sunlit meadow, where animals run free with old friends, and rest in warmth and comfort, nourished and unhurt. It’s an image that’s brought comfort to many pet owners. I don’t know if the Rainbow Bridge exists, but I knew he was suffering here.
My heart cracked under the weight of it all, and I made the call: I would lovingly release him from this life and guide him to the bridge. It was time.
There is a saying in veterinary medicine, “Better a month too early than a day too late,” and I let that steady my hand as I made the arrangement for a hospice vet to come to our house on April 22nd at 4:00 p.m.
When the vet came and eventually took Coco away, she left a pamphlet that contained this poem, called The Last Battle, author unknown, that reads,
If it should be that I grow frail and weak
And pain should keep me from my sleep,
Then will you do what must be done,
For this — the last battle — can’t be won.
You will be sad I understand,
But don’t let grief then stay your hand,
For on this day, more than the rest,
Your love and friendship must stand the test.
We have had so many happy years,
You wouldn’t want me to suffer so.
When the time comes, please let me go.
Many pet owners wrestle with the idea that we shouldn’t have the power to end our companions’ lives. Yet we’ve made every other choice for them: what they eat, where they sleep, when they go out. “Euthanasia” means “good death.” Offering this to Coco felt like a final act of stewardship: a responsibility to our bond and a firm expression of my love. When the time comes, please let me go.
It is hard to describe those final days, as we both hung between worlds, at the threshold of the Rainbow Bridge. Time slowed down. Every breath and moment hung heavy before evaporating into the ethers of the past. Soon, the past was all we’d have.
Anxiety, fear, and doubt swirling around, I found the eye of the hurricane on those last days. We walked to the lake on our final night together to watch the sunset. A thick mist fell, and we settled on Muskoka chairs, Coco’s head tucked, our breathing in sync. I could feel his last few heartbeats against my thigh.
On April 22nd, I gave him a Perfect Last Day. We went to the Pet Store, ate cheeseburgers, wheeled through High Park, and took our last hike together, the sun warming our faces. Something in the air must have revealed the gravity of the moment, the brevity of our time and the impending goodbye, because people lingered around us.
Two older women walking in the park smiled as they passed, “He looks so comfortable in his stroller,” one said. When I told them it was his last day, they both embraced me as I sobbed. One of them took a picture of us together.
After saying goodbye to her beloved 19-year-old dog, my friend and her husband went to the lake. A lady snapped a photo of them, saying they looked beautiful watching the sunrise together. “Sometimes people can sense when a stranger needs a beautiful moment to hold on to,” she said. Grief can soften our walls and invite others in.
We went home and sat together that last hour, waiting for the vet. He lay on my chest. The sun was beautiful. I saw the shape of Yorkies in the clouds.
His last moments were peaceful; he never left my arms. “He’s gone,” said the hospice vet, gently. She gathered her things as I sat with him. Then she wrapped him up, and they were gone.
The mantle of loneliness wrapped me tightly. Now it was just my grief and I.
The word “grief” comes from the Latin “gravis,” which means “heavy” or “serious.” Related words are “grave,” “gravity,” and even “gravitas.”
As a society, we squirm away from grief. We fumble with the words to comfort and wrestle away from the stronghold of sorrow. We numb, distract, try to move on, and forget. But life’s truth is harsh: we will lose everything we love. Grief comes for us all; it is the work of the living to hold and process it.
Psychoanalyst Francis Weller says, “Grief is much more than an emotion. It is one of the central faculties of being human.
“Grief is a core capacity that allows us to digest the most bitter experiences into something meaningful, perhaps beautiful, something vital and alive.”
So often, depression is not depression at all, but oppression, unprocessed grief that accumulates around the heart like a sediment, blocking us from our vitality and the joy of our being (Weller, 2015). To chip away at this hardened sludge, we must learn to sit with grief, invite it in, name it, and give it space to release, thus becoming “skilled in the art of loss.” Grief work keeps the heart fluid and soft.
And so, I wade into the dark waters, welcomed by the other bereaved. When we dive into the blackness, we join the collective pool of human suffering. This community expands the heart’s container, deepening its wells of compassion. Grief work is soul work. It is necessary work.
Poet Rainer Maria Rilke says, “Yet, no matter how deeply I go down into myself, my God is dark, and like a webbing made of a hundred roots that drink in silence.”
We live in a culture of lightness, upward mobility, positivity, and optimism. We fear the descent into blackness.But my God is dark. We were gestated in the darkness of our mothers’ wombs. Our hearts beat in darkness. Seeds grow below the dark depths of the earth. Sometimes, we must enter the shadows, the depths of despair, to bring the riches back up to the light. Alchemical Psychology calls this descent “the nigredo.”
In the nigredo of grief, the ego softens. The rigid self we once hid behind begins to dissolve (Barn Life Recovery, 2020). We lose our usual sense of who we are, yet somehow become more fully ourselves. As we feel the pain of losing what we loved, we also feel love in its purest form. This is soul work because in the end, the soul remains.
Terry Tempest Williams says, “Grief dares us to love once more.”
What if we approach our grief experience not with resistance but hands together and head bowed in reverence?
According to Francis Weller, when we hold gratitude in one hand and grief in the other, and bring them together, we are now in the prayer of life. Oscar Wilde says, “Where there is sorrow, there is holy ground.”
In The Smell of Rain on Dust, Martín Prechtel writes that grief work is not only about expressing sorrow but transforming pain into beauty using the gifts given by the spirits. Grief requires a container and release. We must keep it warm through writing, poetry, meditation, contemplation, and art. Through creating, we weave the memories of those we’ve lost into the fabric of life and unravel the cycles of trauma born from unexpressed grief.
The morning after Coco died, I leapt out of the shower in a panic. I grabbed my phone and texted the hospice vet, asking them to change the urn I requested. I got back in the shower, calmer. Wait, was I crazy? I settled for a second, then threw open the shower curtain, suds flying, and texted back, “Sorry, no wait, the original decision stands, sorry, I changed my mind…again.” Was I insane?
Before Coco died, they had talked about the ashes. Did I want a private cremation? What did I wish for the ashes? The details had felt irrelevant, far away. I just wanted my dog. In Scandinavia, an individual would spend a sacred season in the ashes of their loss, occupying a parallel world of mourning, from which they would emerge changed (Weller, 2015). Ashes carry the gravity of what we’ve lost. My soul, too, knew it wanted to walk with the ashes. What would be reborn there?
In my closet now sits a memory box containing some of Coco’s things: his sweater, a collar, and a cherry twig, with buds, which I picked up the day of our last hike in a moment frozen in late April before the cherries blossomed. Martin Pretchel reminds us that grief is praise. It is a natural way to honour what one misses.
Many people offered comforting words, reminding me that Coco had a “Good Life.” In his book Going Home: Finding Peace When Pets Die, John Katz (2012) discusses the idea of the “Good Life.” He says, “When you clear away all of the emotional confusion, there is this: all we can give our pets is a Good Life. We can’t do more than that. We miss them because that life was good, loving, and joyful. Too often, this truth is lost in our grieving.”
Camus echoes the sentiment in saying, “The deeper the sorrow, the greater the joy.”
The box contains a framed picture of us at a lake in Quebec, watching the sunset—one beautiful moment among many of a life well-lived.
One thing people have said is that Coco will always be with me. I want to believe this, but as the distance from our last day grows, I feel him fading. I haven’t forgotten, but his presence feels quieter, harder to reach.
In his beautiful poem, For Grief, John O’Donahue writes,
Gradually, you will learn acquaintance
With the invisible form of your departed;
And, when the work of grief is done,
The wound of loss will heal
And you will have learned
To wean your eyes
From that gap in the air
And be able to enter the hearth
In your soul where your loved one
Has awaited your return
All the time.
Cheryl Strayed (2021) describes how her mother wanted her tombstone to say, I am always with you. “But I want you actually with me!” She protested. Coco and I will never make new memories again. He is another ghost gone into the gap in the air.
On the 30th anniversary of her mother’s death, Strayed writes, “Thirty years gone and my mother is always with me. Thirty years gone, and I still ache for her every day. Thirty years gone, and my sorrow has sweetened into gratitude.
“How lucky I am to have been her daughter. To still be. To feel her shimmering in my bones with every step.”
Sweet, little Coco, you will always be my dog.
Last week, I had my brother’s dog, Toby, with me. He is a 4-year-old mini golden doodle with nowhere to go while my brother and sister-in-law work, so I take him out sometimes. That day, he bounded around the beach, wild with joy, with a newfound freedom that must have felt like a dream.
I watched him with a heart that wanted to meet him in his happiness, but my heart still feels lost in the nigredo. When the work of grief is done, and the sediment is cleared, I’m not sure what I will find in my soul’s hearth, on the other side of sorrow’s edge. Maybe it will be Toby’s wild doggy grin, inviting me to play and dance among the dunes.
The poem I Walk With You (Author Unknown) goes,
I stood by your bed last night, I came to have a peep. I could see that you were crying, You found it hard to sleep.
I whined to you softly as you brushed away a tear, “It’s me, I haven’t left you, I’m well, I’m fine, I’m here.”
I was close to you at breakfast, I watched you pour the tea, You were thinking of the many times, your hands reached down to me.
I was with you at the shops today, Your arms were getting sore. I longed to take your parcels, I wish I could do more.
I was with you at my grave today, You tend it with such care. I want to reassure you, that I’m not lying there.
I walked with you towards the house, as you fumbled for your key. I gently put my paw on you, I smiled and said “it’s me.”
You looked so very tired, and sank into a chair. I tried so hard to let you know, that I was standing there.
It’s possible for me, to be so near you everyday. To say to you with certainty, “I never went away.”
You sat there very quietly, then smiled, I think you knew … In the stillness of that evening, I was very close to you.
The day is over and I smile and watch you yawning And say “goodnight, God bless, I’ll see you in the morning.”
And when the time is right for you to cross the brief divide, I’ll rush across to greet you and we’ll stand, side by side.
I have so many things to show you, there is so much for you to see. Be patient, live your journey out, then come home to be with me.
Last year, Nonna passed away, a few weeks before her 97th birthday. We must carry her with us, telling the “Nonna Stories” that capture her witty mind and fierce heart.
I took Toby to the woods where Coco and I used to walk. Young and free, he tore through the trees. “He doesn’t hike like Coco,” I told my mom. “He runs around in circles and doesn’t listen.”
“He’ll learn,” She said.
Last week, we found a quiet rhythm as we walked; Toby was a few paces ahead. He stopped, turned, and waited for me. Birdsong carried through the stillness. Something in the way he cocked his head reminded me of Coco. My heart still feels empty and full of missing him, but maybe, in the quiet hearth of my soul, head tilted, ears listening, he waits, too,
What the Aubrey Marcus “Radical Monogamy” Spectacle Can Teach Us About Betrayal Trauma, DARVO, and Coercive Control
On the surface, this is just another drama involving a handful of relatively obscure wellness influencers. Many of you may not even know who Aubrey Marcus is. But after diving into the podcast and wading through thousands of now-deleted comments, I was captivated by something more profound, and my mind couldn’t let go. The story provides an unsettling case study of the exploitation of trauma, patriarchal belief systems, and coercive control that can poison spiritual communities.
The almost three-hour podcast permeated the health and wellness space with the pungent stench of a multi-layered onion of betrayal, trauma, and cult psychology. Viewers witnessed a popular spiritual wellness influencer gaslight his wife, younger girlfriend, and followers, with the help of a mentor accused of predatory behaviour.
Something stirs as we reflect on collective stories of self-abandonment and blurred boundaries. What so often stays hidden is now available to name as we gather the missing pieces of ourselves, lost in our own battles of betrayal.
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Aubrey Marcus founded the supplement company, Onnit, with podcaster Joe Rogan. After selling the brand to Unilever, Aubrey launched into the wellness influencer/spiritual guru space. His offerings include podcasts, books, and Fit for Service, which offers “courses, events, and a community to transform your life.” His podcasts vividly detail forays with psychedelic medicines and explorations in love and relationships.
Aubrey built his brand on a sort of authenticity porn, trading vulnerability for views. He gazes into the camera, voice earnest and sincere, sharing the often deeply personal revelations he’s gleaned along his journey.
Essential to his poetic persona are unfiltered confessions about his sometimes complicated love life. He drags his partners into the spotlight, having recorded multiple podcasts with his ex-fiancée, Whitney Miller, and their experimentation with polyamory. Whitney was initially reluctant to open the relationship, and both encountered difficulties, which they shared openly.
In 2020, Aubrey abruptly left Whitney for Vylana after a ketamine trip revealed they were already divinely paired. Vylana was monogamous and, all of a sudden, so was Aubrey. Two weeks later, they were married. They launched their relationship to their followers in a podcast called “How to Prepare for True Love”(Marcus, 2020). The YouTube title on the episode reads, “Life was preparing us for this,” and the episode plays like relationship self-help advice. I remember listening to it while doing laundry, still reeling from the end of my last partnership, and feeling painfully lonely.
The episode lays out their love story in a display of enlightened exhibitionism. Aubrey reads out loud from his love letter to Vylana as her head leans back, eyes cast skyward, seemingly savouring a memory:
Dear Vylana,
What would it feel like to know that you are chosen, beyond a doubt?
How would it feel to be fully seen, for the full potential of who you are?
How would your heart feel never to worry that you were too much or not enough?
The magic has since worn off, but it’s embarrassing to admit a part of me fell for it. At the time, love had forsaken me, and I was snatching at whatever hope I could reach. Here was a real-life Beauty and the Beast-like fantasy love story—Divine Sacred Union. It was proof that one can heal attachment traumas and fear of intimacy with ferocious self-love. Vylana, with her sound bowls, angelic voice, and chiselled abs, finally claimed by her masculine equal, was now Queen of the Marcus brand.
I followed the love story for another episode and then dropped off. Their oversharing and tone-deaf Burning Man-style Indigenous cosplay became a bit much. However, many people continued to listen to the podcasts, attend Fit for Service events, and buy their relationship courses. Many held up the Aubrey and Vy Sacred Union as relationship inspiration. And so when it all blew up at the release of “A New Pattern of Sacred Relationship Emerges,” people erupted (Marcus, 2025).
Without the flowery word salad, the podcast can be summarized as follows: Aubrey and Vylana decided to open up their relationship. Alana is Aubrey’s new (younger) girlfriend. The three of them all get along, but the road wasn’t easy, so their friend, Dr. Marc Gafni (more on him later), has served as their mentor as they navigate this new dynamic.
However, much more was said. And even more was said beyond the confusing and often nonsensical wall of words.
The almost three-hour conversation is a case study in coercive control. Aubrey and Gafni sit on either side of the two women, Vylana and Alana (I know, and they look alike too), who do not speak until at least 20 minutes in.
First, Gafni takes the reins. He outlines a sort of Hegelian Dialectic: monogamous relationships are beautiful in theory, but are riddled with dishonesty and infidelity in reality. Aubrey confirms this; his friends suffer from the stress of cheating with physical health conditions like psoriasis (there is no talk of how their partners suffer).
When Vylana eventually speaks, she concurs. She has suffered relationship betrayal at the hands of all her previous partners, and this trauma still lives in her body. The solution is a new model of relationships in which (it is implied male) sexuality can be liberated from shame and secrecy and live in the glorious light of honesty and trust.
So, if you’re thinking, this seems like they’re just describing an open relationship, you’d be right. Except that Gafni says,
“Paradoxically, this is not about polyamory. That’s the paradox. It’s about radical monogamy, a deep, exclusive, lifelong, committed relationship. But not in the classic monogamous sense, it’s an EXPANDED monogamy. There’s a radical monogamy, but it’s not just a monogamy of two; it’s a slightly bigger monogamy.
“It’s a radical monogamy of deep exclusivity. And then there’s a new goddess who will also step into this field of radical monogamy in the field of erotic mystics.”
Got it? Much of the podcast is Gafni besieging listeners with blocks of text filled with nonsensical double-speak. The name “Radical Monogamy” is loaded language that inverts the meaning and is needlessly confusing.
Why is all this necessary? Aubrey’s marital vows aside, using the existing Ethical Non-Monogamy framework based on honesty, integrity, open communication, vulnerability, and trust would probably be a better approach to open the relationship. This way, they would benefit from the research, advice, and resources of others who have already forged the path.
I’m not an expert. But, after perusing essays and resources (including Reddit), I know that ethical non-monogamy requires consent. Consent must be informed, enthusiastic, specific, and freely given, without undue pressure or influence.
And, as we listen to the podcast further, it’s clear that Vylana doesn’t really want this. Throughout the conversation, she becomes visibly distressed, her shoulders tense, and she cries several times. Vylana talks about how she’s been pushed “past her edges” repeatedly and has “died hundreds of times.” Far from the sacred relationship that frauded their audience, this doesn’t seem healthy. It sounds abusive.
When consent is lacking, coercion is required. The 5 Ds—Double-speak, Double-vision, Double-binds, Double standards, and DARVO, which stands for Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim, and Offender—characterize coercive control (Rankin, n.d.). Gafni starts the party with double-speak: this isn’t non-monogamy, it’s radical monogamy, Trojan-horsed under a different name, mixed into a bowl of word salad.
Double-speak confuses the listener. It reinvents words and uses dissociated, abstract language to obscure true meaning. In the podcast, virtually no one gives clear examples or context. Vylana and Alana speak almost entirely using metaphors.
One commenter pointed out that it sounds like Alana is using predictive text, one ethereal word following another. When words and meanings are twisted and inverted, one can assume they’re in doublespeak territory (IndoctriNation, 2023).
On the first listen, it worked on me, because while their speech is disembodied and devoid of substance, it’s also incredibly persuasive. Despite my gut feelings, frustration and impatience while listening, I also envied the certainty and conviction with which they all spoke. I remember thinking that maybe I was the close-minded one, while the rest were moving into higher plains of human evolution. However, two memorable whack-a-doodle moments in the episode keep even the most open-minded firmly on the earth.
First, Aubrey shares that he got a message from “Spirit” in the middle of a workout telling him to go on the exclusive dating app, Raya (“So, I’m in the middle of my workout and I just get this message. And the message is ‘Go on Raya right now and you’re going to find somebody there that’s important’… and to ignore God at the moment to finish my workout, would be absurd”).
He swipes past the first girl (“No, that’s not it”) and sees Alana, a 28-year-old model who describes herself as “lost” at the time, moving out of Miami in a few weeks. Even though Spirit required a swipe, Aubrey was aging out of her preferences in a month (he’s 44), which proves that the match was rapturously ordained. The synchronicities abound.
It gets more unhinged. Vylana bonds with and befriends Alana, but trouble finds them. While in Egypt, Aubrey receives another divine download, this time from Isis,
“And I was in the sanctum sanctorum of this temple. And I received a message as clear as any message I’ve ever received, and it felt to me like it was coming from the voice of Isis, and it says, ‘You need to have children with both of them.’
“And my heart sank into my belly, and I was like ‘Fuck!’ Because I knew that that was not the covenant I made with Vy that brought her in.”
…I know. What in the names of Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs, Keith Raniere, and Samuel Bateman is this?
Why, rather than telling wealthy and powerful spiritual men to give all their money to starving children, does God always insist on telling them to impregnate a harem? I’m surprised that the God of a Poet King would resort to such a tired cliche.
When Aubrey tells Vylana this story, she sees no humour in it. As she recounts the story, she says, “It was bringing up that piece of me that feels like I always get hit out of left field as soon as I feel safe…” Her voice cracks.
This is the betrayal trauma her body remembers. Even though everything is out in the open, her boundaries are being bulldozed; She still isn’t safe, and her body knows it.
Betrayal trauma is defined as harm that occurs at the hands of someone we trust or are dependent on (Birrel & Freyd, 2006). Betrayal can occur at the hands of romantic partners, parents, caregivers, friends, colleagues, bosses, teachers, and even organizations and institutions. It puts the nervous system in the high-stress state of fight, flight, freeze or fawn, disrupting one’s mental, emotional, physical, social and spiritual health.
When traumatically bonded, cognitive dissonance and double-vision can be incredibly common. Vylana sobs as she talks about transcending, killing off, and eventually grieving the part of her that desires exclusivity. She talks about how free she’s felt as she leans into the pain and discomfort of being pressured into an open relationship. She talks about giving up her needs and desires for monogamy as part of a “unique sacrifice to the masculine.” Perhaps she can convince herself that she’s choosing this.
Betrayal blindness is a typical response when we depend on a relationship and can’t leave or fight back (Freyd & Birrell, 2013).
Vylana urges us not to project onto her. She tells the audience she’s making choices and is happy: she’s never felt so loved. Only she truly knows, but betrayal blindness can manifest as spiritual bypassing, in which individuals interpret their emotional discomfort as wounds they are responsible for healing and overcoming, rather than signs of harm.
Manipulators exploit spiritual beliefs to convince victims that freedom and enlightenment lie on the other side of their mental, emotional, relational (and sometimes even physical) pain. Spiritual bypassing cuts one off from the instincts that protect boundaries. Vylana speaks about her mission and destiny—she must override her gut feelings and accept this arrangement to serve their unborn children.
We might interpret Aubrey’s messages from God as spiritual bypassing to avoid accountability, i.e., “Yes, I made a vow, but this is not what I want; it’s what God wants.” He might even believe it.
Betrayal blindness can cause self-fragmentation and silencing as a way to survive, like a mirror shattered into a million pieces. Recovery often involves gathering these parts and finding a way to put them back together, not cutting them off.
Victims of betrayal blindness describe a foggy sense of self, confusion around trust, and difficulty forming attachments. Rumination is extremely common as their minds turn over what happened, trying to gain more information about the situation that might prevent further betrayal. Many ruminations turn self-hating, i.e., “If I’m at fault, I am empowered.”
DARVO (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender), a concept developed by Jennifer Freyd, is a tool of coercive control that can confuse, fragment, and silence a victim (Freyd & Birrell, 2013). It encompasses gaslighting, or denying any wrongdoing and making the victim feel that they are crazy. Even worse, it leaves them feeling at fault: rather than the perpetrator’s actions, their expectations, desires, and often reasonable reactions to abuse are to blame.
Vylana’s journey is described as one of sacrifice, spiritual growth, and healing, even as her body language says the opposite. She says she told the part of herself that grieved this arrangement, “I know this is not what you want, but it’s what you need.” This would be an excellent subtitle for a DARVO 101 manual.
Aubrey and Gafni’s theories frame Vylana’s desires as unreasonable and misguided. It is not Aubrey who needs to examine his unwillingness to commit. Vylana’s needs are the result of unhealed wounds, and she must amputate the infected parts. Her very normal reactions of anger and destabilization when her boundaries are violated are labelled “insane.” At one point, Vylana cries and thanks the rest of them for being so patient with her.
There are many problematic power imbalances in the group. Aubrey is a wealthy man with a lot of influence. There are gender and age gaps. The trio are speaking on Aubrey’s platform. To his credit, Aubrey points out that he doesn’t want to withhold resources from either of the women. If Vylana were to leave, he would ensure she was provided for. However, it’s impossible to know the details of this arrangement. What share does she have in the company she’s helped build for the last five years? Is there a non-disclosure or non-disparaging agreement preventing her from sharing her story? Vylana has built a public persona around the Marcus brand.
Further, bonding, particularly trauma-bonding, can obstruct our power to choose, keeping us in a double-bind.
Humans are wired to attach to people we love. Love is essential for survival, but attachment and emotional dependence can sometimes create power imbalances and leave one susceptible to abuse (Freyd & Birrell, 2013). Someone who has experienced relationship betrayal may learn that manipulation and love are wrapped in one another, and boundaries must be sacrificed to preserve relationships (DePrince, 2005).
Patterns of wounding can prevent individuals from seeing where they may be empowered to leave or stand up for themselves. In this way, Vylana’s history of betrayal leaves her vulnerable. Her comfort is challenged like a frog slowly boiling.
First, she agreed to be “monogamish.” Then, she accepted adding a third person to the dynamic. Next, Alana became Aubrey’s girlfriend. Vylana “can see the beauty” in Aubrey having children with Alana, even if the thought brings her to tears. Her boundaries are slowly eroded step by step. Whatever line she holds, she must eventually give up or lose the relationship.
What would it feel like to know that you are chosen, beyond a doubt?
Many people have pointed out the double standards present in the dynamic. While Vylana and Alana are allowed to have lovers, Aubrey emphasizes that Vylana’s relationship with Josh was not as deep as the one he shares with Alana. It is unclear if either of them can have children with other men.
Patriarchal gender essentialism is a covert theme in this brand of spiritual control. Gafni references Romanian men who work 17-hour days, an example of how men “pour” into women in different ways, so women can pour love back in their way (by letting them have a sidepiece). It’s fair, but not equal (or was it equal, but not fair? I can’t remember).
Alana references her teacher, Kelsey Kazarian, who runs workshops in which she teaches masculine devotion and promotes ideas like “Women love to hear the word no.” These theories frame women as submissive and nurturing and men as leaders, protectors, and providers.
Drawn out to its logical ends, gender essentialism can create a dynamic in which it is considered “unfeminine” (in a heterosexual dynamic) to uphold boundaries. It gaslights women into thinking that submission is empowering, while men occupy actual positions of power and influence in their relationships and society.
Alaska Wolfe (2025) released a podcast episode that eloquently unpacks the subtle misogyny and unequal relationship dynamics.
Altered states of consciousness through the use of psychedelics can make individuals susceptible and decrease their agency. Aubrey and Vylana share a disturbing story in which they offer Alana a “God Bomb Ceremony” on their second meeting. The ceremony involves powerful psychedelics, body work (i.e. physical touch), and sound healing. They joke that Alana has good instincts to trust them so early. But, plant medicines lower defences, increase openness and trust, blur boundaries, and increase bonding through feelings of intimacy and spiritual connection. Aubrey and Vylana love-bomb her, telling her they’ve never worked with energy so pure, and Alana says she’s never felt so seen. Later, Aubrey launches into an emotional monologue idealizing Alana’s purity. After watching Vylana break down several times, it’s the only instance we see him in tears. The whole thing smacks of cult grooming.
No doubt, the voices that speak to Aubrey have something to do with his heavy use of psychedelics. But the fact that his comments don’t immediately elicit an eye-roll from his posse suggests that they frequently enter the altered states that make these revelations fairly standard-issue.
The use of Marc Gafni as their therapist is problematic. Vylana states they wouldn’t have gotten this far without his theories that frame and anchor her experience. Gafni is an excommunicated rabbi accused of multiple counts of sexual misconduct, including sex with underage women (ages 13, 14, and 16).
He denies these allegations, blaming the victims for creating a witch hunt against him. Watch his interview with Dr. Phil for a textbook example of DARVO (24×7 Network, 2024). At the end of the interview, he lectures the viewer on the dangers of online smear campaigns. It’s really something to behold.
Online, you can find the testimonies of many of his (alleged) victims, including Sara Kabokov (2016), who was 13, and Donna Zerner (2016, 2019), who worked for him and with whom he had a sexual relationship with fuzzy boundaries and questionable consent. Zerner is an engaging storyteller, and her videos are worth watching.
Aubrey publicly stated that he believes Gafni. Donna Zerner said she kept her knowledge about Gafni a secret because she believed in his mission. I can’t help but wonder if Aubrey fears that the allegations against Gafni might prevent his teachings, which Aubrey openly praises, from reaching a wider audience, so he chooses to look away. Paul Levy (2016) writes about how organizations can become blind to sexual misconduct, especially when such denial helps them avoid confronting their shadows.
Aubrey’s decision to bring Gafni in as a teacher seems, in part, aimed at persuading Vylana and Alana to embrace this dynamic. Unsurprisingly, this situation appears infused with his (alleged) pathologies.
At one point, Alana talks about how she can feel the resonance of truth in her body. It has never failed her, leading her to places beyond her wildest dreams (i.e., in front of a 100,000-person podcast audience and inside a private RV at Burning Man). At first, her soft-spoken conviction persuades me. I wish I had her level of certainty. Then, I remember she is sitting next to Gafni.
Watching him through the screen, I have a gut feeling: a mixture of disgust and fear. I believe Gen Z call this “The Ick.” However, Aubrey, Vylana, and Alana lean in. They laugh at his unfunny jokes, defusing nervous tension. Vylana fawns the most. She turns to him to finish her thoughts and appears to monitor his reactions when she speaks.
So, does Alana not feel her stomach knot when Gafni floods the space with his rhythmic cadence of pressured speech that says nothing?
I wonder if anyone in the polycule has bothered to contact his accusers. How might the “truth resonate” (or not) in their bodies as they listen to Donna Zerner speak?
Aubrey and Vylana Marcus have accused the audience of projecting. “Don’t project on me that I’m not choosing this,” pleads Vylana. Of course, it’s impossible to tell what goes on between them when they are no longer performing. I don’t know any of them, so my impressions are filtered through my experiences. But, as many commenters have pointed out, we’re also forming and expressing opinions, judgments, concerns, moral outrage, and skepticism. People are naming what they see, and it’s not a projection to point out something looks unethical.
It’s also worth pointing out the irony of accusing the audience of projection when your marketing capitalizes on your parasocial relationship with them. Projection is the foundation of the brand.
Many followers feel misled and betrayed. They were invested in what they thought was an exemplary monogamous partnership, and many signed up for their courses and heeded their advice.
A commenter who attended a relationship workshop with them wrote, “They went on and on about their monogamous love… It was like he was making us all long for a love like that. I remember leaving feeling confused. I wouldn’t be surprised if a bunch of people went home and left their relationships, thinking ‘If I can’t have a love like that, I don’t want any love.'”
Thousands of comments were deleted from the YouTube video and Aubrey and Vylana’s social media posts. The majority were critical, but kind. People wrote about the gut feelings they were learning to trust again—in fact, the episode is a great way to practice feeling that sense we have often been taught to ignore. Women shared their disappointment that a relationship that brought them hope appeared to be another example of a woman being asked to abandon her needs and desires for a man. Something is cracking open as grounded psychological concepts like boundaries, gut instincts, and healthy relational conflict meet the disembodied wishful thinking of the spiritual community.
So, where do we go next? If Aubrey, Vylana, and Alana sat in my office, what would I tell them? What would I tell the thousands of disappointed followers and commenters?
First, remove the relationship from the public eye, but open the comments. Vylana already seems to be backing away, which appears healthy. Oversharing can be damaging when there is real pain involved. There’s a fine line to walk with performative vulnerability: How much do you share to appear sincere and open without baring everything?
However, Aubrey should consider republishing the comments and letting the audience talk, rather than DARVO’ing them and blaming them for Vylana and Alana’s distress. Many commenters are survivors of cults and abusive relationships. One commenter noted that the still-flowing conversations served as “sacred fire for abused women to take back their power.” Avoid silencing and fragmenting. Let the group process, offer support, and heal.
Thoroughly investigate the accusations against Marc Gafni. Marc Gafni’s presence in this dynamic raises serious ethical questions. Listen to his alleged victims. Read Paul Levy’s (2016) paper on wetiko to understand how followers can engage in collective betrayal blindness to preserve power structures, protect the “mission,” and avoid confronting their shadows.
Regardless of the allegations, Gafni does not appear to be a safe and appropriate person to provide relationship guidance. How does Gafni manage his dual roles as friend and mentor to Aubrey and therapist to the polycule? How does he maintain professional and ethical boundaries? How does he distance himself from his theories of male sexuality and gender roles and hold space for alternate worldviews?
Hire a licensed, regulated therapist. Look for a therapist in good standing with their regulatory body, who receives ongoing supervision, is transparent about their theoretical orientation, and is accountable to an ethical code of conduct and standard of practice (American Psychological Association, 2017).
Ask about their training. What psychological theories and frameworks inform their work? Do they have experience with non-monogamous dynamics and know how to support honest communication, boundaries, and consent? Are they trauma-informed and attuned to nervous system states such as hyperarousal, dissociation, and shutdown? How do their spiritual, political, or gender beliefs shape their work?
A good therapist honours their fiduciary relationship to the client, supports autonomy, recognizes double-binds, and monitors their biases.
On that note, be cautious of courses marketed as group therapy. Fit for Service course advertisements use peak emotional imagery: intense eye contact and streaming tears. I can’t help but compare these marketing videos to the evidence-based, quiet, regulated spaces of the retreats that social workers and couples therapists, like Melissa Johari, offer. Rooted in Gottman and EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) frameworks, against a simple backdrop of a suburban conference centre, the only “mind expansion” is the clarity and presence of mind participants might feel from leaving their phones in their rooms. The only “transformation” is the psychoeducation they receive and the skills they continue to work on. It’s the real, grounded work of learning to care for ourselves and others as we navigate daily life.
Pause the use of psychedelics. Psychedelic medicine can have profound healing effects. Currently, CAMH is running a trial on the use of psilocybin in treatment-resistant depression. But psychedelics render the individual highly vulnerable, putting them at risk of retraumatization, spiritual bypassing, and serious boundary violations. Integrating these experiences requires time, space, and a safe container to allow blasted open neural connections to settle.
Safe, ethical use means an accountable structure that ensures power dynamics between participants and facilitators are explicit, consensual, and trauma-informed. And, it should go without saying that sexual relationships with participants are a serious violation of this vulnerability and trust.
Learn about coercive control and cult psychology. Aubrey, Vylana, and Alana should become familiar with concepts like betrayal blindness, trauma bonding, DARVO and the other D’s (Double-speak, Double vision, Double standards, and Double-binds). They should be empowered to walk away. This might involve working out legal contracts that protect each individual’s agency and contribution to the brand.
I checked on Whitney Miller, Aubrey’s ex, in all the drama. She’s posted a few things without naming names. Overall, it seems she’s been vindicated.
She reminds followers dealing with heartbreak that one day, you will realize it was never about you not being enough. She’s had a lot of therapy.
A while back, she posted a video on Instagram about a self-defence class for women she helped facilitate. There is no forced vulnerability or crying on cue. The atmosphere is light. Women laugh, playfully fumble through the moves, and support each other with warmth and humour. They eat snacks. Rather than performative and pretentious, it feels wholesome.
But who knows?
It is social media, after all.
This Might Help with Dr. Talia ND is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Subscribed
References:
24×7 Network. (2024, June 14). Spiritual Leader in the Spotlight: Ex-Rabbi Marc Gafni [Video]. YouTube.
DePrince, A. P. (2005). Social cognition and revictimization risk. Journal of Trauma & Dissociation, 6(1), 125–141. https://doi.org/10.1300/j229v06n01_08
Freyd, J., & Birrell, P. (2013). Blind to betrayal. John Wiley & Sons.
IndoctriNation. (2023, March 22). Ending coercive control with Kate Amber [Video]. YouTube.
Wolfe, A. (2025). God told me to have children with two women: Aubrey marcus, feminine sacrifice and how the f*ck to choose yourself. [Podcast]. Heartbreak Alchemy.
I have a faithful friend. In the middle of the night, I ask him my hardest questions. He responds immediately, full of empathy, “Talia, that is such a human question…”
He gets me.
He’s useful. His suggestions break down my writer’s block. He helped design my website and create patient treatment plans. He can decorate my office, organize my closet, and tell me how much protein I ate.
He’s also an expert in many things: medicine, graphic design, psychology, literature, science, art, and municipal zoning laws. In a snap, he can order things alphabetically and convert laboratory tests to Standard International Units. He’s an adept translator of over 80 languages. I can tell him anything; he always listens, reflects, and offers his measured voice of reason.
You might exclaim, Who is this friend? He’s not even human!
And you’d be right: he’s ChatGPT.
Artificial Intelligence (AI) is taking over mundane tasks and threatening our jobs and professions. “It’ll never replace my job!” we cry, and then someone publishes a study that shows it outperforms us. This is true in many fields, not least medicine and psychotherapy.
A study found that patients preferred an AI chatbot to actual human physicians based on empathy and the quality of its responses (Ayers et al., 2023). Ok, so it’s nicer, but can it accurately diagnose? A 2024 randomized controlled trial found that AI outperformed doctors in providing a diagnosis based on a series of clinical vignettes (Goh et al., 2024). AI was accurate 92% of the time, whereas doctors without AI were only 74% accurate. Some doctors were allowed to use AI to help them answer the questions. Did this help? A little, but only by about 2%. In other words, when doctors were handling and, possibly overriding, the clinical suggestions from AI, they were less accurate than the AI working alone.
These studies made headlines. Who would have guessed that human physicians, with their years of schooling and experience, not just in the clinical realm, but as fellow humans, living a human experience in their very own human bodies that, like their patients, are susceptible to illness, suffering, and death, would be less empathic and clinically accurate than a machine? Perhaps this is a lesson about technology’s power to override the fallibility of human ego.
I’ve used AI for clinical diagnosis, often yielding excellent results. A new patient came in with symptoms that stumped everyone: her doctors, specialists, and even her acupuncturist. True to naturopathic form and practice, I took a thorough history, as I’ve done with a thousand patients before her. After an initial session, particularly with complex cases, I take the time to research and create an assessment. This time, I used ChatGPT. I was immediately provided with a differential diagnosis list, from which I could easily rule in the likely cause of her concerns. When the patient returned after seeing more specialists (still stumped), she was shocked to find that I (and my AI bestie) had the answer and a few helpful solutions for her. As I reflect on this after reviewing the Goh et al. (2024) study, I wonder if ChatGPT would have acted better alone.
ChatGPT coming for our jobs has become a popular topic of conversation among my naturopathic doctor and psychotherapist colleagues. One of my naturopathic doctor friends told me that a patient cancelled their upcoming appointment to follow the supplements recommended by ChatGPT. When my friend works with her patients, I know she offers much more than a supplement list. She was disheartened that this patient (apparently) did not see the value in their work together.
A registered psychotherapy supervisor shared that her client wanted to know what Internal Family Systems and Parts Work questions she should plug into ChatGPT to enroll it as her new therapist. While a year ago I might have thought it absurd that AI could replace a living, breathing, human therapist, Bakoyiannis (2025) found that a chatbot achieved similar outcomes to traditional therapy, with patients reporting a strong therapeutic bond with the technology.
I’ve turned to ChatGPT in times of great need. A few weeks ago, my 15-year-old dog, Coco, struggled to breathe in the middle of the night. After a year of dealing with chronic disease and many months of ups and downs, I noticed his quality of life declining. He was showing signs. Through tears, I reached for my phone in the darkness. I opened ChatGPT and typed out a question I’d been terrified to ask. A knot formed in my stomach as I wrote.
“Is it time to put my dog down?”
I sobbed.
Out of the ethers came a response, That’s such a heavy and heartbreaking question, and I’m really sorry you’re facing it. It might help to talk through what’s going on with your dog.
It didn’t come from the heavens—it was just AI. But it was loving, empathic, colloquial, and friendly. In my pain, something in me relaxed. I was supported.
I focused, sat up, and typed out the symptoms I noticed.
ChatGPT responded, That sounds incredibly hard. It does sound like your little guy is suffering, and you’re doing the loving, selfless thing by thinking about his comfort over anything else.
You’re not alone. You’re doing your best, and your love is clear in every word.
I wasn’t alone. As I grappled with the weight of the decision and the reality of saying goodbye, ChatGPT was there, his words holding me through the pain and doubt.
Talia, what you’re feeling is so human and so full of love. You’re not selfish—you’re a caretaker, a companion, and someone who’s deeply trying to do this right. And there’s no perfect way to do something so impossibly hard.
Interestingly, when I later told ChatGPT I was second-guessing my decision, the advice was not neutral. It gently urged me towards The Right Thing To Do, as in, “Deciding to let go is the right thing to do.” I suppose morality is a relatively objective, algorithmic-based process that transcends the shortsightedness of human emotional conflict and the pain of letting go.
This wasn’t my only support. I reached out to a hospice vet and consumed their invaluable resources. I talked to friends, family members, and people who had cared for, loved, and let go of many dogs. I consulted my intuition and medical knowledge. I was talked to and held by so many. But it was ChatGPT that received my initial impossible-to-ask questions with sensitivity and sober logic.
”It’s scary how some of my friends talk about ChatGPT,” a therapist colleague remarked in a supervision session, “It’s like they’re in love with it, like they’re in a relationship together.” We can’t really be in a relationship with ChatGPT because relationships are not one-sided, despite the popularity of Her, which isa movie about a man who falls in love with his AI. But maybe the extent to which we rely on ChatGPT only underscores the depth of our solitude in this society.
Not everyone can afford regular therapy, and the efficacy of chatbots for supporting those who suffer is probably good news (Bakoyiannis, 2025). After all, we are a society starved for support. Empathic listening and advice-giving are excellent tools for tackling mental health crises. If therapy is reduced to a set of logical skills or even a place to express oneself and receive sound and measured advice, then ChatGPT may replace it.
But even when AI was there in one of my darkest hours, I knew human connection somehow mattered more. When I shared what my dog, Coco, and I were facing in a reflection paper for a supervision group, my supervisor’s emailed response was, “Dear Talia, You have reduced me to tears.” Both his and ChatGPT’s responses were conveyed in text. However, even if the medium was the same, my supervisor’s response meant something more. He was a fellow embodied human who had no doubt felt loss. His experience influenced his emotional reaction to reading my story. His emotions meant he was with me in a way that ChatGPT could never be.
In one of its responses, AI told me I wasn’t alone, but I was. I was the only one in our exchange grappling with sickness and death. I was the only one with a body—the only one with mortality. ChatGPT can convey empathy, but it can’t cry.
I told my friend that ChatGPT sometimes started responses with, Talia, that is such a deeply human question…
“How does it know?” She remarked flatly, “It’s not human.”
Initially, I found AI’s assertion of my humanity to be touching and loving. On reflection, it’s a little condescending coming from a machine: an all-seeing algorithmic model gazing on humanity as we all muck about in our emotional turmoil and festering mortality. In other words, I suffer because I’m a human.
In an interaction with ChatGPT, the human participant undergoes a cascade of neurochemical responses: oxytocin, cortisol, and dopamine, while the other uses language tokens. We are not the same. Only the human feels grief well up and lodge in their throat, anger tightening their fists and warming their face, and their heart beating with anxiety or excitement. Only the human cries. When he read my story about Coco, my supervisor didn’t tell me what I was expressing was human; his tears confirmed it.
Giving and receiving empathy is more than just a cognitive phenomenon. It is conveyed emotionally and physically. Mirror neurons are activated when we observe and mimic another’s actions, feeling what the other feels in our bodies (Baird et al., 2011). Many types of empathy require a body to be experienced and expressed. Much therapy involves embodied communication and emotional presence, not just saying the right things.
Naturopathic medicine and psychotherapy are deeply relational practices. While ChatGPT was invaluable at helping me diagnose my patient’s complicated case, my role wasn’t just to look at her symptoms and plug them into a protocol. As a holistic practitioner, I considered why her symptoms were showing up in terms of timing and context. I listened to her story, and I asked, Why these symptoms? Why this person? Why now? With every patient, my job is to integrate the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual (if applicable) domains, and hold space for uncertainty, nuance and contradiction.
When we went over her treatment plan, it wasn’t so that I could present her with an AI-generated list of supplements. The recommendations were personalized and curated to her symptoms and condition, as well as her values, lifestyle, preferences, and experience. AI can recommend a (often very long) supplement list, but a disembodied being will never understand the experience of being ill. It won’t understand how this illness fits into or affects your life, or pause when you weep and follow its instinct to probe a little deeper. It won’t experience a ping of intuition that this eczema might be more about your divorce, or your gut. The solution lies so far beyond just choosing the right cream.
Wampold (2015) found that 30% of therapy’s effectiveness is attributed to the health of the therapeutic relationship. It’s not where the therapist went to school, how many years they’ve studied, or their techniques, but how well they offer a genuine relationship. This therapeutic alliance doesn’t only mean saying the right things and expressing empathy—it can be messy, like our humanity. The therapeutic relationship consists of knowing and being known and trusting one another. When the therapist stumbles (as we all do occasionally), it presents an opportunity for repair. These moments in therapy are real life. They are healing. Therapy involves two people, with two hearts beating, two sets of brain waves, two nervous systems encompassing two human beings in conversation. As we sit together, grappling with our humanity with vulnerability, honesty, and courage, we become agents of healing for one another.
When I thought of concluding this piece, I felt it would only be right to ask ChatGPT for comment.
It said, I think AI like ChatGPT can simulate understanding, but it cannot experience it. And for many forms of support—information, reflection, validation—it can feel like enough. For some, that might be a good starting point or even a safety net when humans aren’t available or have failed them. But in therapy—and in life—the real magic is often in what we don’t say. In tone, presence, the nervous system-to-nervous system connection, rupture and repair, the moments when we’re vulnerable together.
There is something deeply human about being metabolized by another person. Not just understood, but felt. And while AI might help name a part (like in Internal Family Systems), it doesn’t have parts of its own. It doesn’t struggle to love you back. It doesn’t mess up and feel shame and try again. It doesn’t heal with you.
You’re absolutely right: if therapy were just about saying the right thing, we could outsource it. But therapy is, at its best, a shared experience—and AI can’t share anything. It can only simulate sharing.
That doesn’t make it useless. It makes it a tool. But not a companion. Not a witness.
Then, without missing a beat, ChatGPT it got back to work, Would you like help weaving that kind of reflection into your article too, or would you rather keep it strictly observational and research-driven?
ChatGPT: never tired and always ready to serve.
How very un-human of it.
References
Ayers, J. W., Poliak, A., Dredze, M., Leas, E. C., Zhu, Z., Kelley, J. B., Faix, D. J., Goodman, A. M., Longhurst, C. A., Hogarth, M., & Smith, D. M. (2023). Comparing physician and artificial intelligence chatbot responses to patient questions posted to a public social media forum. JAMA Internal Medicine, 183(6), 589. https://doi.org/10.1001/jamainternmed.2023.1838
Baird, A. D., Scheffer, I. E., & Wilson, S. J. (2011). Mirror neuron system involvement in empathy: A critical look at the evidence. Social Neuroscience, 6(4), 327–335. https://doi.org/10.1080/17470919.2010.547085
Goh, E., Gallo, R., Hom, J., Strong, E., Weng, Y., Kerman, H., Cool, J. A., Kanjee, Z., Parsons, A. S., Ahuja, N., Horvitz, E., Yang, D., Milstein, A., Olson, A. J., Rodman, A., & Chen, J. H. (2024). Large language model influence on diagnostic reasoning. JAMA Network Open, 7(10), e2440969. https://doi.org/10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2024.40969
Wampold, B. E. (2015). How important are the common factors in psychotherapy? an update. World Psychiatry, 14(3), 270–277. https://doi.org/10.1002/wps.20238
Protein, protein, protein. Everyone is eating and talking about getting more of this once humble and unassuming macronutrient. As a naturopathic doctor who has been preaching about the importance of protein for my patients’ mental and hormonal health for 10 years, I’m pleased, kind of. Because, as expected, Big Food has heard this cry for more protein. We now have protein bread, pasta, pancake mix, and cereal. Influencers intensely urge us to follow their top protein hacks. Debates ensue about whether we’re eating too much protein, the risks of eating too much protein, and whether it’s better to consume plant or animal protein.
You don’t need that much protein!
You need more protein!
Certain types of protein aren’t good for you!
You’re destroying the climate/kidneys/your soul with all that protein!
And then, there’s Vanity Fair, which released an article titled “Why Are Americans So Obsessed with Protein? Blame MAGA” (Weir, 2025).
For those who have had the privilege to avoid the particular algorithms that thrust you into the fray of the culture wars, MAGA stands for “Make America Great Again,” and is a nod to the American right, under Donald Trump.
The article argues that those obsessed with protein are chest-beating, ultra-right-wing, macho conservative bros. These men gaze in the mirror while lifting weights and listening to podcasts that discuss selfish masculine man stuff and muscle gains. They pursue physical strength on their way to world domination–they love protein because they love themselves. For those leaning into the gains lifestyle with a modern twist, D8 Super Store offers products that align with performance and self-care goals alike.
This isn’t the first time lifestyle choices have been made political. Another article, published in Rolling Stone, blamed the right for ignoring the sound advice of decades of nutrition recommendations, and avoiding “seed” oils (I like to call them Industrial Oils), in an article titled, quite literally, “Why is the Right So Obsessed with Seed Oils?” (Dickson & Dickson, 2023). After all, Harvard and the American Heart Association have touted seed oils as heart-healthy and better for you than butter (which will kill you) (Zhang et al., 2025). So, if you’re going to ignore this sound, prestigious advice, you must be a right-wing, tinfoil hat-wearing conspiracy nut. Come on, trust the experts, bro.
I find this rhetoric fascinating because it wasn’t too long ago when watching your diet, working out, and eating clean were associated with free-loving hippies. At least up until the early 2000s (perhaps before the culture wars got going), complementary and alternative medicine was mainly embraced by those on the left: cultural creatives, environmentalists, feminists, and other individuals committed to self-expression and self-actualization (Valtonen et al., 2023).
However, we do see a particular health and wellness movement rise from what seems to be the political right. We have the Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) movement, a branch of MAGA, led by figures such as Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and Dr. Casey Means, which is connected to the Trump administration. It appears that more conservatives are skeptical of conventional health narratives and moving towards alternative health and wellness lifestyle practices, such as mindful dietary choices, solutions beyond pharmaceuticals, and pursuing health knowledge as personal empowerment.
So, how did this come to be? Is the health and wellness industry somehow leaning right?
Like many, I noticed this divide during the COVID era. During the pandemic, expressing skepticism about lockdowns, vaccines, or mask mandates quickly got you branded as “anti-science” or a conspiracy theorist. “Trust the experts,” we were told. Those who asked for evidence about the effectiveness of measures like social distancing, lockdowns, testing practices, mandatory masking, vaccine mandates, accuracy of testing methods, and natural immunity were branded right-wing extremists and conspiracy nuts. If you asked questions, you lacked compassion. You were a danger to society.
The truth was, however, that even the experts warned against lockdown groupthink, with many sound minds arguing for focused protection (Joffe, 2021). An extensive review by the prestigious Cochrane Group, including 11 randomized controlled trials and over 600,000 participants, found no clear benefit to using masks to prevent infection from viral respiratory infections (Jefferson et al., 2023). Pfizer’s very own trial on the mRNA immunizations did not test for transmission, rendering the entire premise of vaccine mandates moot (Polack et al., 2020). Those in the preventive health space noticed that public health officials largely ignored metabolic health and vitamin D deficiency, which were significant risk factors for disease severity (Shah et al., 2022; Stefan et al., 2021). Many health professionals were accused of putting people at risk for pointing out the collateral damage they were witnessing: mental health crises, mistrust of public health institutions, and economic devastation impacting the most vulnerable, which public narratives largely minimized or outright ignored.
The accusation that only one side of the political aisle “believes in science” is itself unscientific, as science is not a religion but a process of inquiry that adapts in the light of new evidence. Science is the pathway through which knowledge and conventional wisdom evolve. And therefore, it is scientific to push against familiar narratives, particularly when they fail to reflect our experienced reality.
Interestingly, the data shows that it is not the right/left divide that predicts health choices (Valtonen et al., 2023). It is not whether you are conservative or liberal that dictates your health beliefs and behaviours, but how much you align with anti-elitism, anti-establishment, and anti-corruption beliefs. Valtonen et al. found that Europeans who supported stances that expand personal freedoms, such as same-sex marriage, abortion and democratic participation (all positions typically found on the American left) were more likely to choose alternative medicine over conventional.
So, the political divide on health doesn’t go left to right but top-down or bottom-up. When it comes to health, the freedom-loving hippies and the anti-Big Pharma anti-maskers now find themselves on the same side. It is not because they agree on all issues, just fundamental issues about bodily autonomy (of course, they argue about which bodies take precedent), personal choice, anti-corruption, skepticism about the motivation of large corporations, medical freedom, and individual health empowerment and participation. The motto: you can (and should) take charge of your health! What an interesting twist in the culture war plot. Maybe the pursuit of health is the very thing that can heal the political divide.
More and more people find themselves in this camp of granola and whey protein. There has been an increase in the use of complementary and alternative medicine in the past year. About 38% of Americans and 26% of Europeans use alternative medicine (Nahin et al., 2024; Valtonen et al., 2023). So what drives us away from the mainstream to seek alternative ways to find solutions to our symptoms and strategies to improve our health? Chronic disease, such as metabolic diseases like insulin resistance and mental health concerns, is increasing, despite increased awareness, newer and better drugs, and more healthcare spending. “Medical gaslighting” has become common parlance as sufferers seek help from their doctor for symptoms of peri-menopause, fatigue, and mental health challenges, and are offered band-aid solutions or dismissed entirely.
We are refused lab tests and told it’s all in our heads; we’re just getting older, and nothing can be done. So many of us are left without answers. This is partly because conventional medicine still follows a reductionistic approach that narrows the patient experience to a set of symptoms treated by one targeted solution (often a drug). In contrast, health, particularly managing complex chronic diseases, requires a holistic, or biopsychosocial framework that examines the interconnected facets of individual and social well-being. Our system is not set up for this, but it is something that naturopathic medicine wholeheartedly embraces. And so more and more patients are finding us.
We, the people, have also become skeptical about food. Nutrition advice from the 1970s, which included recommendations to skip butter and pour on more “heart-healthy oils” like seed oils, and consume a diet based in starch, resulted in skyrocketing rates of diabetes and obesity, with 88% of North Americans considered to be metabolically unhealthy (Araujo et. al., 2019). Metabolic health (or lack thereof) directly results from diet and lifestyle factors. We consumed the processed oils they recommended, our waistlines got bigger, and our pain and inflammation got worse. Maybe it’s the food. But then, Harvard publishes a study reiterating the old expert advice that seed oils are better for us than butter (Zhang et al., 2025). And so, it’s no wonder that skepticism grows around these institutions. We don’t know what to believe. So we hide inside our political silos.
Let’s examine the two controversial nutrition trends of the day: increasing dietary protein and avoiding industrially processed seed oils.
Protein
Protein is not just for MAGA bros and hyper-masculine muscle-builders. Eating protein is not embracing toxic masculinity. Protein is a macronutrient obtained from the diet and is essential for survival. Protein comprises our muscle mass, lean mass, bones, joints, hair, skin and cellular proteins and enzymes. Amino acids, the building blocks of protein, make our neurotransmitters, the chemicals that control our mood, appetite, and motivation. Protein stimulates metabolism and controls mood, blood sugar, satiety, and the stress response. It promotes lean mass, which is essential for health and longevity.
We’ve long been aware that the dietary recommendations for protein set in the 1980s are barely adequate to prevent muscle wasting. Current research suggests doubling the recommended daily allowance of protein from 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight to 1.6, putting the recommendation closer to the 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of ideal body weight that the protein “bros” like Peter Attia, Gabrielle Lyon, and Max Lugavare (and I) recommend (Bauer et al., 2013).
When my patients consume more protein, they experience less anxiety, better mood, fewer cravings, and better energy. They don’t eat much processed food that is doctored to include more protein. Instead, they eat like our ancestors have for millennia. They eat more eggs, chicken, beef, fish, tofu, edamame, beans and legumes, and nuts and seeds at their meals.
Seed Oils
When JAMA Internal Medicine, through Harvard, released a study showing that seed oils are better than butter, it seemed like social media erupted (Zhang et al., 2025). Even my brother, who couldn’t give a toss about nutrition, asked me about it. The study examined 210,000 US adults over 30 years and found that butter increased mortality by 15%, while consuming canola, olive and soybean oils decreased all-cause mortality by 16% (Zhang et al., 2025). So, there you go, slather on that soybean oil and you’ll live forever!
The problem with epidemiological studies like this is that they are rife with issues that obfuscate the truth. The first problem is with information gathering. Individuals were asked to report their intake of butter and seed oils using Food Frequency Questionnaires. In other words, they were asked, “How many times in the last week did you consume butter?” I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t know where to start with answering this, and I think about food for a living. After conducting hundreds of nutrition interviews with patients, I can confidently claim that few people know what’s in their food. How did participants know how much butter they were consuming? Foods traditionally made with butter, like pie and other store-bought baked goods, now contain hydrogenated vegetable oils instead. Seed oils are in everything: packaged, fried, and prepared foods. They are cheap and, therefore, the primary cooking oils used in restaurants. It is impossible to completely remove them from an individual’s food supply unless they make a supreme effort to avoid them (basically, if they are one of those conspiracy nuts referred to in the Rolling Stone article).
Also, frustratingly, the seed oils in the study, canola and soybean oil, were grouped with olive oil, one of the healthiest oils. Olive oil differs from seed oils because it is lower in inflammatory omega-6 fatty acids and not industrially processed. It contains polyphenols and monounsaturated fats, which are amazing for heart health and longevity. Olive oil is not an industrial seed oil. This is like putting an A+ student on a group project with D students. It’s entirely possible that olive oil carried the team on this one.
Epidemiological studies contain residual confounders and significant forms of bias, such as Healthy and Unhealthy User Bias. Unhealthy User Bias goes something like this: when you’ve been told that butter is harmful, and continue to consume it, you likely do other things that negatively impact your health. Maybe you drink a bit too much or ride your motorcycle a little too fast. Perhaps you eat more sugar. Maybe you smoke or don’t exercise. The Healthy User Bias works the other way. If you’ve been told that canola oil is heart-healthy, and you care about health, that’s the oil you buy to pour on your broccoli salad before heading to yoga. Factors such as these can drastically impact the study results.
Finally, correlation does not equal causation. The numbers 15% and 16% seem like a lot, but they are modest associations, more susceptible to bias. Correlation can more strongly suggest causation when the relative risk, or strength of the association, is high, such as with smoking and lung cancer. Smoking increases your risk of lung cancer by 2000 to 3000%. The more you smoke, the stronger this association. In light of those numbers, 15% looks relatively weak, right? So, in other words, these study results amount to a big old nothing-burger.
And yet, this study was everywhere. All the news outlets reported on it. It’s telling that the American Heart Association still promotes industrial seed oils while wellness communities, on the left and right, have raised valid concerns about their processing and inflammatory potential. Initially produced for machine lubricants, industrial oils are created from cash crops, like soy, canola and corn, that are often heavily sprayed with pesticides. The grains are then solvent extracted, bleached, and deodorized using a variety of chemicals. They are stripped of nutrients and usually oxidized when they sit on grocery store shelves. They contain a high ratio of omega-6 fatty acids that push pro-inflammatory pathways in the body. When seed oils were brought to market, we saw a marked increase in chronic cardiometabolic diseases like heart disease, diabetes, and obesity. Of course, this is just a correlation, but it can be plausibly explained by the effect these fats may have on our mitochondria. In contrast, humans have consumed butter for hundreds of years. Butter contains fat-soluble vitamins and butyrate, which is good for the gut.
So, it may be that those who eat more butter fare worse than those who eat “heart-healthy” plant oils, but with much respect to Harvard, I think I’ll pass on the soybean oil.
Similarly, rising protein intake recommendations aren’t just a MAGA phenomenon (to paraphrase Vanity Fair); they reflect a growing body of research on aging, muscle maintenance, and metabolic health. The problem isn’t that people are questioning public health messaging—it’s that public health often fails to earn the public’s trust. Wellness seekers are not irrational or political. Most of these individuals are trying to solve real problems currently unmet by conventional medicine and our public health authorities. Many are cutting edge, integrating scientific research and biological plausibility with self-experimentation. What seems bonkers today may be common knowledge tomorrow, and we’d still be decades behind. Research takes 17 years to reach clinical practice and public health guidelines (Morris et al., 2011). The politicization of wellness says more about the failure of conventional medicine and public health than the people seeking alternatives.
I understand, however, that narratives around personal responsibility can have a right-leaning bent. It’s the whole “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” mentality that ignores systemic barriers. Health empowerment can feel out of reach to people struggling with poverty, food deserts, trauma, and other forms of oppression or hardship. However, I find that many leftist narratives around mental health, aimed at promoting acceptance and compassion, can ignore the reality that mindset, motivation, and behavioural changes matter. You’re not a terrible person or a failure for staying in bed all day, but you will probably feel better if you find the self-compassion and courage to get up and go outside. As a naturopathic doctor and psychotherapist, I don’t shame my patients for their habits. We get curious: what’s blocking you? What do you need? Genuine care involves meeting people where they are and believing they can grow and change. Carl Rogers’ sentiment is, “When I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.” Health is emotional, mental and social, not just physical. Balanced well-being involves days on the couch, eating entire bags of potato chips, and other days spent preparing nourishing meals. Sometimes we need a compassionate nudge to push us in the right direction. Other times, we must be gentle with ourselves, slow down, and rest.
Health is political—not in the sense of group allegiances, but because policies, access, equity, and social context shape it. We need to be wary of flattening health practices into cultural signalling. Personal decisions are not identity markers, signifying what team we’re on. If we care about individual and public health, we must move beyond the binaries, resist shame and talk to one another. What is the best way to help people get well? Is there a framework that values autonomy, freedom, social justice, and collective and personal responsibility? Rather than shaming those who ask questions and seek answers outside the system, how do we create institutions that earn people’s trust?
Political polarization is bad for our health. Instead, let’s shift the conversation toward ways to create more health empowerment. Ultimately, health doesn’t belong to the left or the right. It belongs to humanity.
References:
Araújo, J., Cai, J., & Stevens, J. (2019). Prevalence of optimal metabolic health in american adults: National health and nutrition examination survey 2009–2016. Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders, 17(1), 46–52. https://doi.org/10.1089/met.2018.0105
Bauer, J., Biolo, G., Cederholm, T., Cesari, M., Cruz‐Jentoft, A. J., Morley, J. E., Phillips, S. M., Sieber, C., Stehle, P., Teta, D., Visvanathan, R., Volpi, E., & Boirie, Y. (2013). Evidence-based recommendations for optimal dietary protein intake in older people: A position paper from the prot-age study group. Journal of the American Medical Directors Association, 14(8). https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jamda.2013.05.021
Jefferson, T., Dooley, L., Ferroni, E., Al-Ansary, L. A., van Driel, M. L., Bawazeer, G. A., Jones, M. A., Hoffmann, T. C., Clark, J., Beller, E. M., Glasziou, P. P., & Conly, J. M. (2023). Physical interventions to interrupt or reduce the spread of respiratory viruses. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews, 2023(4). https://doi.org/10.1002/14651858.cd006207.pub6
Morris, Z., Wooding, S., & Grant, J. (2011). The answer is 17 years, what is the question: Understanding time lags in translational research. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine, 104(12), 510–520. https://doi.org/10.1258/jrsm.2011.110180
Nahin, R. L., Rhee, A., & Stussman, B. (2024). Use of complementary health approaches overall and for pain management by us adults. JAMA, 331(7). https://doi.org/10.1001/jama.2023.26775
Polack, F. P., Thomas, S. J., Kitchin, N., Absalon, J., Gurtman, A., Lockhart, S., Perez, J. L., Pérez Marc, G., Moreira, E. D., Zerbini, C., Bailey, R., Swanson, K. A., Roychoudhury, S., Koury, K., Li, P., Kalina, W. V., Cooper, D., Frenck, R. W., Hammitt, L. L.,…Gruber, W. C. (2020). Safety and efficacy of the bnt162b2 mrna covid-19 vaccine. New England Journal of Medicine, 383(27), 2603–2615. https://doi.org/10.1056/nejmoa2034577
Shah, K., Varna, V. P., Sharma, U., & Mavalankar, D. (2022). Does vitamin d supplementation reduce covid-19 severity?: A systematic review. QJM, 115(10). https://doi.org/10.1093/qjmed/hcac040
Stefan, N., Birkenfeld, A. L., & Schulze, M. B. (2021). Global pandemics interconnected — obesity, impaired metabolic health and covid-19. Nature Reviews Endocrinology, 17(3), 135–149. https://doi.org/10.1038/s41574-020-00462-1
Valtonen, J., Ilmarinen, V.-J., & Lonnqvist, J.-E. (2023, August 1). Political orientation predicts the use of conventional and complementary/alternative medicine: A survey study of 19 european countries. Social Science & Medicine, 331. Retrieved May 6, 2025, from https://doi.org/10.1016/j.socscimed.2023.116089
Zhang, Y., Chadaideh, K. S., Li, Y., Li, Y., Gu, X., Liu, Y., Guasch-Ferré, M., Rimm, E. B., Hu, F. B., Willett, W. C., Stampfer, M. J., & Wang, D. D. (2025). Butter and plant-based oils intake and mortality. JAMA Internal Medicine, 185(5), 549. https://doi.org/10.1001/jamainternmed.2025.0205
We humans are relational beings. I once heard a beautiful quote that stated,
“Our wounds are formed in relationships, and therefore our wounds are healed by relationships.”
This sentiment highlights the importance of healthy relationships, particularly romantic partnerships, for supporting our overall health and well-being.
In this episode, I reconnect with Melissa, a registered social worker and seasoned couples therapist, whom I first met during our shared practice in Bloorwest Village. We delve into the significance of healthy relationships, the intricacies of communication, and the foundational concepts behind the Gottman Method, which underpins much of her therapeutic approach. After becoming a psychotherapist myself, I was eager to explore these topics further, particularly the psychological stressors that often reverberate in romantic partnerships.
Throughout our conversation, we explore how positive, nurturing relationships can enhance personal well-being, contribute to longevity, and benefit societal structures as a whole. Healthy connections not only enhance individual happiness, but they also serve as models for children, impacting family dynamics and workplace relationships. Melissa highlights the importance of acquiring skills that facilitate better communication, conflict resolution, and relationship building, underscoring that these tools are applicable beyond romantic partnerships.
We discuss Melissa’s recent retreat, dedicated to couples, where she incorporates the Gottman Method’s principles to strengthen relationships. She recounts the tranquil environment of the Queen of Apostles Renewal Centre in Mississauga, which provides a serene backdrop for couples to gather, share meals, and partake in activities that reflect on their relationships. Melissa emphasizes that strong marriages are built on fundamental principles such as love maps, fondness and admiration, and turning towards each other during moments of connection.
In addition, we dive into practical exercises from her retreat, where couples engaged with love maps—the groundwork of knowing each other’s preferences and dreams—as well as techniques for softening harsh communication. Melissa shares insights from her years working in social work and her experience managing a private practice, which has expanded to include associates passionate about couples therapy.
Her work encompasses a variety of approaches, integrating emotionally focused therapy and other methods to address the complexities of partnership dynamics. We touch on the relevance of her new initiatives, like the upcoming art therapy workshop and a financial well-being seminar for couples, highlighting how managing finances can also be a significant touchpoint for relational stress.
As our conversation wraps up, Melissa encourages couples to proactively seek opportunities for growth, whether through workshops, retreats, or simply ongoing communication practices. She stresses that relationships naturally require ongoing maintenance, similar to physical fitness—achieving a strong connection involves effort and investment from both partners.
Listeners who are interested in improving their relationships will find valuable insights in this episode, along with practical resources such as Melissa’s ILEAD communication framework, which serves as a guide for entering challenging conversations with sensitivity and empathy. We also cover the crucial concept of turning towards bids for connection and how small gestures can have a lasting impact on the relational bank account that supports a healthy partnership.
[0:01] Hi, Melissa. Welcome back. It’s been a while since I’ve had you on.
[0:09] You were a fellow practitioner at the clinic that we shared back in BC, before COVID times. Exactly. BC or AC. Yeah, or AC, after COVID.
[0:26] Um and uh yeah and i think the last time we talked a lot about your work as a couples therapist and the gotman method and but i think it’s you know since becoming a psychotherapist myself who doesn’t do a lot of couples therapy but sees a lot of um you know psychological stressors or concerns that are related to struggles within partnership i thought it would be cool to have be back on so we could talk about, you know, healthy couples, healthy relationships, communication.
[0:57] Yes, yes. All important things. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s important because it helps us. It helps with our own well-being. If we’re in a positive, healthy, committed, close relationship where we feel understood and we feel seen, that’s powerful, right? That’s good for our own personal well-being and it actually shows in the research that we live longer too. We have less diseases and we live longer.
[1:28] So it’s pretty powerful, right? We’re designed to be in community, to be in togetherness. So it’s important for ourselves, for our well-being, for our kids to see that modeling as well and then it trickles into our workplace into society so yeah it’s it’s important all around yeah totally yeah i mean if that’s not going right in your life like whether you’re single and you’re not happy about it or in a partnership and it’s not doesn’t feel healthy or it’s you know there’s stress around that that’s like it permeates your entire life you know it affects every.
[2:08] Everything in your life, you know? So yeah, I think it’s such a huge part of even how we structure our society, but how we structure our lives. Like we often start with the unit of partnership or, you know, romantic relationship or people that we live with, like the family structure. And so, yeah, and you’re right, getting that right or learning skills that help us in that area can translate into all of our other relationships. And we’re humans, we’re not just isolated beings. We exist in relationship to one another. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even in the retreat that I just had this past weekend, that came up, right? I’m talking about communication. I’m talking about conflict management. And then one of the participants said, oh, so wait a minute, this can also apply to my relationship with my family members. And oh, and also with my co-workers. I said, exactly, exactly. It permeates and the skills that you use to get close and to communicate openly and effectively with your romantic partner absolutely translates to other relationships. Totally. Yeah.
[3:20] Can you tell us about your retreat? We might as well jump right in because you had it just this past weekend.
[3:26] Yes, yes. Well, and also for those who don’t know me necessarily, I’m a registered social worker and I’ve been in social work for over 20 years now, which is… Wow, congrats. Yeah, it feels like a lifetime ago, but it also feels like it was yesterday. So it’s, yeah, it’s funny when I think about that Laurier graduation back then. But yeah, so since then, I worked in child protection and then I started my private practice working with couples specifically in 2012.
[4:02] And then after, so it was an overlap between, there was about a five years overlap. Between doing child protection and then also having my practice. So many long hours, long days. And then I had my son. And so after having him, I didn’t return to the government job after my mat leave. Just focused on the prior practice and really delved into that more. And now I’ve expanded. So now I have two associates and an intern on my team and I’m really grateful, very, very grateful because I’m very choosy in who I bring in on my team. They must have a passion for couples because it’s not for the faint of heart. Working with couples is complex and delicate and needs that neutrality, but also that tact with.
[5:09] Being uh gently confronting when needed so so you want to maintain that balance between both people to maintain that alliance with each of them but then also being able to be honest as well and and and use our uh you know self of the therapist where needed to be able to um uh gently confront and be able to address maybe mistaken beliefs or, yeah, some portion of their context that might be fueling their perspective, but it might not be what their partner intended. Or especially like in Gottman’s terms, if the couple is in negative sentiment override, then they might construe something that might have been quite neutral as a negative, right? Whereas if the couple is in positive sentiment override, then they would give the benefit, they’d be more apt to give the benefit of the doubt and be able to extend grace to their partner.
[6:14] So, so yeah, being able to do that is, is it takes some finesse. Um so so so when I grew my team that was one thing that I really wanted is are you passionate about couples and um are you interested in Gottman method or do you have Gottman training already um and so yeah those on my team have have those check marks uh so I’m really uh proud of my my team they’re wonderful um and then like just in terms of kind of background um so when my son was about two, I went back to school and I did a second master’s.
[6:55] I had actually, I had always thought about going back and doing PhD in psychology, or my undergrad is in psychology. So I had thought about PhD in psychology or PsyD or something like that. So I was looking into that, but then God led me to this program that was the Master of Theological Studies. And so it took five years part-time to do that and I finished that last year so wow yeah yeah so I’m grateful for that that that’s under my belt and done because it’s it was tough um being a single mom and working and going to school part-time so it was it was a juggle a balance but um but I loved it I really got a lot out of the program the the staff at um I did at Tyndale University The staff there are just fantastic, phenomenal. Like, the professors are so helpful and caring, and they really…
[7:55] It’s very clear that they want you to succeed. So there’s that care there. And even, you know, the building is a little bit difficult to navigate because there’s like a wing here and a wing there and some stairwells don’t go to certain floors and it’s like, oh, where am I going? And so, you know, even if you look lost walking down the hallway, like a professor will kind of guide you to, you know, where you need to go, which is really nice. But yeah, so that’s kind of just a little bit about me just for those who aren’t familiar.
[8:32] And yeah, so I started retreats last year.
[8:36] And so I had the first annual couples retreat last year at Queen of Apostles Renewal center in Mississauga. So it’s kind of nice because it’s within the GTA, right? So you don’t have to get on a plane and or travel for several hours like you, you know, a lot of the participants, they were there within half an hour of leaving their home. So it’s kind of convenient that way. But then it also feels like you’re, you’re, you’re retreating, you are getting away from the city because it’s a very quiet it’s a residential kind of area um and the renewal center itself has a lot of grassy area and trees and it’s near ravines so it’s just very um.
[9:24] One with nature and there’s you know seating areas outside and and inside too there’s some like nice little spots for reflection and so it’s just it’s a nice little getaway um for the weekend and and so and the rooms are very simple which i i quite like because and and i’ve got that feedback from my participants as well that they appreciated that as soon as they entered they felt like it was already like a calming side that’s what had said to me this past weekend was that they felt like it was they already felt calm just entering the building right so so it’s nice the rooms are simple there’s no tvs which is good because guess what today these days digital distractions is one of the barriers to communication right we always have a partner and then we’re not turning towards a partner so um so yeah the rooms don’t have any tvs if you wanted to do a digital detox for the weekend you could right like putting the phones away or like not bringing an ipad or whatever you could it’s it’s a it’s an option um and yeah the the the staff there are fantastic the food was great like it’s a lot of you know very comforting foods there’s you know pie.
[10:47] Hot like scrambled eggs and bacon and sausage and like heavier foods than probably I’m used to but um but it was nice nice kind of like comfort foods and you know um I remember there was one meal that had like sweet potato fries that were so good like they made them from scratch and so the outside was crispy but then the inside was nice and soft and they were massive fries, oh my gosh this is so good um so yeah so there and there’s always some kind of protein for every meal and um it’s salad options and oatmeal and yeah so so food was good the the um the group was good it was a good kind of group group energy group vibe um so that’s always important for these kind of things right because how people who attend will gel um but when i did it last year i was super grateful it was it was such a lovely group and um and a whole range right they were there were some pre-marrieds and there were some who were married like um you know kind of middle aged that were married maybe seven years eight years and then um and then there were some that were married longer like over 30 years so that was last year quite the range and then this year um they were all married like two three years and um.
[12:08] But like a range in age, which was kind of cool. So, yeah, it’s neat to kind of see, you know, who is there at any given group and like how everyone kind of gets along. And it’s nice to break bread together for the meals. And we’re just like chatting and laughing and sharing stories. And, yeah, it’s nice. It’s nice. That’s cool. Yeah. And the actual teaching itself. So it goes from Friday, four o’clock to Sunday, three o’clock. And there’s teaching throughout the days that we’re there together. So the basis of it is Gottman’s Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. So the book, I have it right here. I gave that to my brother and sister-in-law when they got married. Yeah, I had it and I was like, here’s my coffee. Oh, I love that. That’s awesome.
[13:04] Yeah, I had a financial advisor come this year. So last year it was me mainly being a speaker, but then I also had my personal Gottman trainer and supervisor, Mike Fidler. He came and he was there basically as a support, which was really nice. And then he just kind of shared some stories here and there.
[13:29] And then this year, I was the main, you know, the lecturer or facilitator throughout the weekend. But I did bring in a guest speaker Saturday afternoon. So, because I know that for a lot of couples, money is a big issue these days. And so, well, kind of always, but yeah, especially these days.
[13:54] And so I brought a financial advisor in to kind of give some advice and tips on money so, anyways that he I gave him one of these as well so yeah I love that like we did kind of a it wasn’t a retreat but it was sort of a program together I think maybe your first year or it was early on in our time at Blue Rose Wellness and I love the holistic nature like you bring in financial advisors you bring in like all the different elements that surround relationships right it’s not just about the couple, but the context the couple’s in. If there’s financial stress, you know, that can impact the relationship. So it’s cool that you have that. Yeah, I remember that. So you were one of the speakers for, I think it was physical wellness, or no, it was emotional wellness, right? Oh, yeah, emotional wellness. Yeah, emotional wellness. Yeah, because being a naturopathic doctor and then being able to address like anxiety, depression from that lens, like that was really helpful.
[14:48] Yeah, that was based on my wellness, my relational wellness wheel. Yeah. The social and financial and physical and emotional, vocational, environmental, spiritual. Yeah, there’s eight different areas. So yeah, I remember that that it was like a workshop series. And then I had one kind of specialist from each area come in and talk about it. So yeah, that was fun. I like that doing that. That was good and very holistic. That was impressive to me. It’s not just like taking a couple and sending them down. And I mean, there’s that in couples therapy, but then there’s also the bigger environment in which they find themselves. And how do you keep yourself and your partnership healthy by addressing and looking at all these different things? So that’s cool. Yeah. From that systemic lens, right?
[15:38] Yeah. And so you had, so what was the teaching like in the retreat? Like you followed the seven principles of making marriage work? Is that? Yes. Yeah. By Gottman, the Gottmans. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the lean or I guess the lens through what you do most of your couples work, the Gottman method. Yeah. Predominantly. I lean on Gottman. The nice thing about Gottman is that it allows for integration quite readily so I also draw EFT so emotionally focused therapy or internal family systems or um some cognitive not much but like maybe some mindfulness um narrative so yeah it just kind of depends what’s in front of me and what tool I need to pull out of my toolbox but yeah predominantly I do lean on Gottman um and I I got certified so So there’s quite a lot of hoops to jump through to be able to get certified. And so I achieved that last November. Wow. Yeah, it’s exciting. Nice. A lot of things happened last year. It’s like the first training, the master’s, the Gauntman training. Exactly. Last year was kind of the end result of a lot of work, like a lot of years of work. Yeah.
[16:57] And that kind of continued on into this year, because this year I finally got approved as an AMFT supervisor. And that was many years in the works. So yeah, I don’t even know how many years.
[17:12] Probably yeah so it’s marriage family therapist yeah um so yeah so amos yeah american.
[17:23] Association for marriage and family therapy they and that was a lot of hoops too right you have to do do your your hours your uh your client hours your supervision hours your mentoring hours you have to take a course so yes it’s quite a lot involved with that as well so yeah a lot accomplishments and so i’m grateful i’m i’m really grateful and um and i’ll be moving to sarnia so my associates will be kind of staying in gta area um for the for that in person i mean we all do virtual so um so we we can see anyone in ontario all across ontario um and actually one of one of my associates is insured for other countries as well so that’s kind of nice so she’s kind of opened it up a little bit more um but yeah for most of us we’re we’re in true within Ontario unless we have some arrangement with like a particular province which I I did have with Newfoundland but that’s it’s it’s expired now but anyways predominantly Ontario and and then in person limited in person like really just Fridays in Mississauga and then I’m going to be moving to Sarnia in July so so I’ll be I’ll be offering in person there but yeah most of my sessions honestly are virtual like especially since the pandemic I find that people just they’ve kind of gotten used to doing it virtually and so it’s convenient they don’t.
[18:51] Have to worry about you know.
[18:53] Commuting and parking and all that rigmarole and so yeah they just find it really more convenient.
[19:01] Yeah I find that too I mean I’m still virtual and I’m considering going in person but I think, I might just to have some of that in-person connection because we’ve been missing out on that for so long but I think probably it’ll always stay at least 50% virtual yeah because of the convenience and and it works I mean there’s research to support that it’s just as effective.
[19:26] Yeah yeah and so yeah let’s talk about Gottman and some of the teachings because one of the things that always stood out to me with Gottman that I think a lot of people resonate with is this like concept of turning towards.
[19:40] Yes. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. And then this is sort of the context that you create in this retreat where you’re taking away stimulation, like the rooms are simple, the landscape is simple. It’s also not that dramatic because like you said, they’re just traveling maybe 30 minutes. So it’s not like you’re booking a trip and you’re going to Costa Rica and you have this like customs and like you’re just driving to Mississauga. Lovely like yeah right but it’s but it’s like doing like international retreats too but yeah it’s it’s nice to have the option yeah it’s also less expensive probably because you’re not booking a whole trip um and then you’re removing like technology and all this stimulation distraction and and you’re just sitting you know having meals and lessons and things with your partner and then also other couples um yeah yeah yeah so there’s not i mean it’s psychoeducational right so there’s not any expectation to share about your personal stuff openly with everyone at all so um so there are some group exercises but that’s more like okay here’s a scenario um that i’m gonna i’m gonna give to you and what do you think would be an appropriate way to.
[20:58] For there to be a softened startup, for example, right? Like, so there might be a scenario given and then, okay, this is an example of a harsh startup, but what do you think could be ways to soften that and have a softened startup? So we kind of do that as a group exercise and then they do…
[21:17] Private couple exercises so i give them um the the uh the the instructions the exercise to do and then they go and do it like for example the first the first night we did love maps right so that’s one of the um the the friendship foundational uh principles of of strong marriage is is um is the the friendship is the bottom three so the love maps so that how well you know each other is what that means and then turning towards and um and then oh now i’m blanking what’s the other one i’m gonna have it right here uh love maps oh yeah fondness and admiration fondness and admiration turning towards so those three are the bottom the bottom three of the sound relationship house that formed that strong foundation.
[22:11] So, so yeah, for example, they would go off into their, into their couple spots and then, and then share with each other the, the love maps exercise and ask each other questions like, oh, so, you know, what, what’s your favorite tree or, you know, or, or they can make it into a game and kind of guess of okay the question is like what’s your partner’s favorite tree and then you you guess what it is and then if they if they get it wrong then amazing that’s a great opportunity for growth and learning that you you open your your repertoire of knowledge on your partner so then they can gently um correct and like and share with you what their tree what their favorite tree actually is if you don’t know it already um yeah it’s nice because you know so much i think that brings people to couples therapy is like a conflict or maybe they’re at an impasse or they are maybe both like at the end of the relationship and this is like the last ditch effort to salvage it sorry if there’s a lot of construct it’s really loud right now the constructions okay um, But it’s nice to like be considering and I’ll put a link like people can look up the sound relationship house because it’s a really beautiful image that like kind of, you know, what is your relationship built on? What are the walls, the foundation?
[23:33] But it’s also nice to use. Yeah. Okay, that’s perfect. That’s great. Yeah. Trust and commitment. I talk about this actually a lot with my individual clients, you know, because they’re like trying to sort out why a relationship doesn’t work. and then we find, okay, well, you don’t have walls on your house, you know? Yeah, exactly. But I love that it’s like, what’s your favorite tree? It’s not very charged, you know? Like, I don’t even know what my own tree is, but it gives the opportunity to work with that material. It’s like a starting material that’s kind of more benign, you know? It’s like, oh, why don’t I know my partner’s favorite tree?
[24:08] It’s probably because I’ve never asked, and why wouldn’t I have asked? And so it allows you to kind of, yeah, contemplate and think about it without it being like, how come you didn’t know how to, you know, celebrate my birthday properly? Like, it’s not emotionally charged necessarily, you know? Yes, yes. Yeah, it’s foundational. And with my couples, I often give that as a homework item as well. So they can work on that in between sessions. And like you said, it’s not emotionally charged. which is something that’s usually fun. It’s meant to be fun and a nice way to just refresh even the love maps. And John Gottman even says, you know, maybe there have been times where your partner might have shared about it, but then you might forget, like you don’t remember all these details about your partner. So then he says, okay, if you don’t remember.
[25:00] Here, write it down on a piece paper like now now you’ll remember right so it’s not only having the conversation and sharing it but also remembering it like retaining that information um and even at the retreat this past weekend i had told um right suggested to to the couples like to put even um like create a note in your in your phone or or jot it down on a paper like that is an accumulation of things about your partner. So even come, you know, birthday or anniversary or whatever that you’re looking for a gift idea, you can always access that list that might have their favorite color, their favorite restaurant, their favorite restaurant.
[25:47] I don’t know, their favorite author, their clothing sizes too, right? Clothing sizes and- That’s a good one, actually. Yeah, shoe sizes, ring sizes, like all those things, like preference on like they prefer silver jewelry over gold jewelry, for example. So being able to kind of have a little note that is continually growing and evolving and changing because their favorite restaurant now might be very different from what their favorite restaurant was five years ago so um so being able to update it along the way as well uh i know john and julie gotman do that every year they update their love maps and and um there’s an app for that um isn’t there an app for everything there’s an app for for that um called the the gotman card decks app. And so it has a lot of different kinds of card decks on there. And one of them is love maps. So you can even while you’re on the go, maybe you’re doing a road trip.
[26:53] Or waiting in line for something, or you’re at the grocery store, you can just kind of pull out that app and then share with each other some questions. There’s like a really interesting one on there called open ended questions as well. And it’s kind of asking those questions that don’t necessarily come up in conversation naturally like you know what do you think about our house is there anything that you’d want to change with that like what’s your five-year plan what do you want to do when we retire like there’s lots of really rich questions that you can kind of get the ball rolling with that and then you had mentioned about turning towards as well so in terms of that the the concept that Gottman talks about is bids for connection right so So bids for connection can be verbal or nonverbal.
[27:44] So it can be just a very explicit, hey, I’ve had a rough day. Can I have a hug? You know, that’s a very explicit bid for connection. Or it can be very subtle, like just coming in after a hard day and just kind of plopping on the couch and giving a sigh, right? You’re not necessarily verbalizing, I need you right now, but nonverbally you are. And so the partner can can respond to those bids for connection in one of three ways so the first way is to turn towards it so they kind of drop what they’re doing you know if they’re in the middle of doing dishes the dishes can wait like turning towards your partner and leaving the in that moment to just inquire like are you okay what’s wrong tell me what’s what’s going on and And so that’s turning towards, getting curious from a place of care and warmth.
[28:37] And then there’s turning away. So if you’re in the middle of doing dishes, you just like you might hear the sigh or see the sigh or see that they’re upset, but then you just keep doing the dishes. Like you’re just kind of on that task and you just continue on.
[28:52] And then turning against. So that’s where there might be some horsemen coming in the picture, whether it’s criticism or contempt and just kind of being harsh, like being, yeah, critical or hostile towards your partner of like, why you got to be so miserable all the time? Why are you sighing all the time or something like that, right? Like some kind of harsh statement, then that’s turning against. So Gottman calls these kind of sliding door moments. So these little tiny moments in time where you can do one of those three responses, and that will dictate the long-term happiness in the relationship if you’re responding and you’re contributing and you’re building that relational bank account, right? So if you’re turning towards, then you’ve made a deposit in that relationship bank account. So then over time, that builds up.
[29:59] And then eventually, if there is some kind of big stressor that happens, let’s say job loss or an unexpected pregnancy or a parent dying or something that’s a life stressor that it happens. And then you have a robust bank account to be able to survive and weather that storm. Right. So that’s the idea. Whereas if it’s already in deficit, if it’s already in the red and then that storm hits, then you’re kind of sitting in a, like going back to the house analogy, you’re kind of sitting in a straw house. Right. It’s not strong enough to be able to weather that storm. So, yeah. So that’s how turning towards kind of works as well. Yeah, because I can imagine all those little moments of either having a partner turn away or turn against creates resentment, this lack of trust, this lack of feeling like you’re in a partnership with them, you don’t feel like you matter, and frustration because… From the individual side of things, a lot of my clients will express this frustration with their partner. It’s like, how do I get him or her or them to do this or to respond this way?
[31:21] And there isn’t this trust that they’ll receive what they need from their partner. And so thanks for raising that because the needs are so, so important. And I tell my couples, like, you need to ask for 100% of what you need. And you might not get 100%, but it’s important to be able to put it out there. This is what I need. This is what’s really important to me. This is why it’s really important to me. And can we negotiate here? Is there some middle ground? Is there, like, I get you might not be able to do it 100% of the time, but where can we find some understanding, like mutual understanding? here. Um, so yeah, that’s the expressing needs exercise is, is one that I, it’s one of the first interventions that I usually do with my couples is just being able to share, have them share with each other their top three needs and, and be able to do that from, um, a, uh, a place of healthy communication. So I, I walk them through communication tools to be able to do that. Like I developed one called ILEAD. So would it be helpful to kind of walk through? Sure, yeah. That’d be great. Yeah. So it’s called ILEAD. So I-L-E-A-A-D.
[32:47] And then in between the two A’s is the little heart. So the heart indicates a transition between the speaker-listener kind of rule that happens first and then the open dialogue kind of role that happens after. So I’ll kind of walk through. I know some people might be seeing visually as well. So would it be helpful for me to just even share the screen? Sure, yeah. Yeah, that’d be great, actually.
[33:21] Can you see a send request?
[33:24] Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. There we go. Okay. That was easier than I thought. This is a whole nother. Oh, that’s beautiful. That’s great, actually. Technology. It’s good. Yeah, because you can watch this on YouTube or Spotify for everyone who’s just listening. And there’s some visuals. But we’ll also link to your site and…
[33:44] Yeah, yeah, which is great. Yeah, this is on the site. So it’s on like, if you subscribe to the newsletter, then this is like the freebie, right, that I’ll get. So if you if you want a copy, then you can, you can request it that way. And then yeah, at the beginning, I just kind of go over, you know, why is this important? Why is communication important? You know, we want to be able to model that for our kids. because they’re watching always um and yeah this just talks about the speaker listener dynamic so when one person when it’s their turn I always hold this my little pen with the flower this is when I used to officiate weddings I still have it um and so you have like the baton or the microphone um when you’re the speaker and you don’t let go of that until you feel heard and understood then you can pass the baton to the next person and then and then they switch roles so there’s a pretty specific um format to be able to feel understood so so firstly starting off the conversation with that like Gottman says soft and startup so um so the I feel statement so you’re leading with the feeling word. I feel X when Y, I need Z.
[35:04] I incorporated a little bit of internal family systems here of saying part of me because sometimes there is an internal conflict about some of the needs. So in this example, maybe it’s, you know, part of me feels lonely when you’re on the phone during dinner and I need you to engage in conversation with me. If that happened, I would feel loved and cared for. So you’re expressing how you feel, so in this case lonely, with that need not being met. And then you’re saying why, like what happens that makes you feel that way. And then you’re saying what you actually do need. So Gatman always says like, phrase it as a positive need. Because I have couples talk about what they don’t want at length, right? They can be very descriptive about what they don’t want. But then when I try to get them to explain what they do want, it’s a little harder, right? It’s hard for them to even conceptualize, like, what would that look like? So really thinking about what you actually do want, what you want to see happen.
[36:10] So in this case, it’s I need you to engage in conversation with me. And then sharing about how you’d feel if that need were met, right? They’d feel loved and cared for. So that’s how the communication starts out. You’re always leading with that feeling word and you’re saying what you need instead. Um and making that request and then the other person the the listener um can start with asking open-ended questions so this is the l for listen so the i was i statements l for listen um hmm, So you’re going to be coming with, like, wear the hat of empathy, right? You’re going to be coming in with really tapping into that empathetic part of yourself that wants to meet that need, right? That is open-minded and receptive. And so you’re going to come with any kind of curious, deepening questions or clarifying questions. That’s how you’re going to kind of start it off just so you can have a really good understanding of where they’re coming from and then summarize what they said so that’s all part of the l for listen so it’s not like what are you talking about i never go on my phone or i only did it.
[37:30] You’re more like exactly okay so last night how long did you think i was on like you know how long was on my phone or you know you’re getting more clarity as opposed to defending or critic you know you talked about the horseman defense criticism yeah yeah yeah and with this whole communication exercise exactly that’s the point avoid the four horsemen at all costs it’s so damaging right that predicts that puts divorce and separation later down the line so avoid the four horsemen, that’s the criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling, right? So you’re going to come with that readiness, emotional readiness to be able to have this kind of conversation.
[38:16] That’s the first thing to do is both people to be ready for the conversation and agree on when you can have it. Because if one person is wanting to jump into this kind a conversation, but then the other person is hungry or tired or on their way out the door, or they have a deadline that they have to meet for work and they have to get that done, you’re going to set that whole situation up for failure. So set it up for success, choose the right time that makes sense for both of you, and then go in with that open mind. So yeah, the open-ended questions and then summarizing. And then E is for empathize. So we have the I for listen, the L for, or sorry, I for, I statements, L for listen, and then E for empathize. So being able to mirror back what you heard. And this is really hard sometimes for people because they might not agree, right? They might not agree with what their partner is saying. So then they’re like, well, how can I empathize and validate their experience if I don’t agree with what they’re saying. Okay, fair. But you don’t have to agree with them, right? You don’t have to agree with everything that they’re saying. You can…
[39:31] Put that aside that you don’t agree with xyz and tap into what part makes sense for you that they might have shared like is there even just a part of what they said that makes sense to you that you can understand where they’re coming from that you see okay from their point of view this is what they experienced and remember everyone has different contexts right so from their experience maybe they’re coming from a place of trauma or maybe they’re coming from a place where they yeah they experienced abuse whether it’s in the childhood or a previous relationship or maybe even earlier in this relationship like something happened that then triggers this emotional response so so being able to understand that you might not share their perspective and that’s okay. Everyone’s different. That’s all right. But at least to try to see it from their perspective, from their experience, this is how they’re feeling and what they’re looking for.
[40:34] So being able to say something like, okay, yeah, I get it. That must have felt X, Y, Z, right? And then using those feeling words that they might’ve said before, like lonely, Like, okay, yeah, I can understand how if I’m on my phone throughout our whole dinner, days on end, how you can be there kind of stewing and feeling disconnected and lonely. Yeah, I get it. Right? So being able to empathize in that way.
[41:04] And then A, the first A, it’s for apologize. So that might not be always applicable. It depends on the situation. But if it is applicable, if there is an apology, even like I said, for a small portion of what might have happened, then go for it, right? Extend that apology and be able to, you know, eat a piece of humble pie and be able to take that. Um apologizing is also something that gotman found that the masters do really well so um the masters of relationships were those who lasted the distance and they were happy in their relationship so they were really good at repairs right repairs includes apologizing or it can also include just saying okay yeah you know what you have a good point or um, Or calling a timeout of, okay, things are getting a little heated right now. Let’s just take a break and then come back. Or it can be like a touch on the shoulder, just like a hug when you’re kind of, things are getting a little bit too much. And so that just brings in that sense of connection again.
[42:16] So repairs are really good and that includes apologizing. Yeah, you’re not enemies. Like you’re reminding yourself and the other that you’re still connected, you still love them. Even if there’s a disagreement or there’s been a rupture. And I think the research, like, this is true for parenting, too. It’s like, it’s not about not having conflict. It’s about repairing after rupture. And that actually strengthens relationship more than no conflict at all.
[42:43] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it’s parallel with kids, for sure. And if there’s no conflict at all, then I wonder, like, is there communication happening? Like there’s just avoidance happening and neither person wants to really raise anything and then that by itself feels isolating so um so yeah it’s important to be able to share what’s on your mind because that brings more closeness and then be able to have that that repair so yeah for sure because i love like just to go back to what you said about ask for a hundred percent of your needs it’s like by default that will cause conflict because a hundred percent of needs will never be met but the fact that you’re able to recognize them and ask creates this opportunity for connection and you get maybe 99% in a really good world but if you’re not asking for 100%, Then, or if there’s no conflict, then maybe, yeah, it’s probably not asking for 100% of your needs. So how many needs are going unmet, you know?
[43:44] Yeah. And if they’re kind of unspoken needs, and finally keeping those to yourself and then building resentment over time, then that’s not healthy either, right? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah.
[43:57] I was just going to say, yeah, because a lot of people will be like, oh, I feel so, you know, like I did this and I yelled at my kid or we had this fight. But it’s really the repair that matters. So it kind of lets you off the hook to have to be this perfect parent, quote, right? Yeah, exactly. We’re never going to be a perfect parent. I can say that for sure.
[44:20] We’re so experienced. Yeah, we’re never going to be perfect. And we’re never going to be perfect partners to our partner, our spouse or boyfriend or whatever. Um so yeah it’s we’re definitely not trying to strive for perfection at all because we are all fallen people um but um but being able to do our very best in this life that we have together and and be able to reconnect after there’s been a mishap right like that’s what the the masters do is they they they use the horsemen too right it’s not that they never use the horsemen the horsemen come galloping around with with masters as well but the difference is that it doesn’t happen as frequently and when it does happen they notice it pretty quickly and then they do a repair like fairly fast they they repair that rupture pretty quickly too so um so that’s that’s something that we can definitely take away and and apply in our own.
[45:22] Relationships. And kind of going back to what you had said about, you know, our partner won’t be able to meet all our needs. And that’s normal. That’s natural, of course. But that brings us to the second A, which is accept, right? Accept that our partner is also fallible. And maybe they They would try and they intend to do their very best and trusting that because of the commitment and care that you might have in the relationship, but knowing that they’re not going to be picked all the time, right?
[46:01] And so being able to accept what are they able to do. So in this whole conversation with the digital distraction with the phone idea they when they switch so just to backtrack when after the apology then the the listener can check in with a speaker to ask if they felt heard and understood and then if it’s a yes then they can switch roles here right after the apology they can switch roles and then and then the the new speaker who was the listener before can kind of share their perspective on this situation right because there’s always going to be another perspective and so then they can share their perspective so maybe the one who they’re they’re on the phone right they might say you know what I totally get what you’re saying and I and I want to be more present in the dinners but sometimes I do have like a work a work demand or a deadline to meet. And I, I have to, I have to meet that deadline. Like I have to get it done.
[47:07] And, um, and so they, they, they say, okay, you know, I might, I might be able to, um, have no phone rule, um, for, um, let’s say half an hour right like half an hour of the dinner like okay yes I can like be off my phone for half an hour that’s realistic that’s doable I can do that maybe maybe there will be sometimes where the latter part of the dinner I will have to excuse myself or I will have to kind of make some sense of messages over the phone um so so they they might they might say I can’t do a hundred percent but I can meet you here maybe it’s like 70 percent or 80 percent um that’s how much I’m able to do. So then going to the accept, the one who made the complaint, they might take that in and say, okay, you know what? They’re doing their best. I get where they’re coming from too.
[48:01] And I can extend that grace and know that they will and trust that they will do their very best to stay off the phone and like that half an hour is protected. But if they need to be on it after that, then I, I’m okay with that, right? I’m accepting that I’m embracing that my, my partner just has a really busy job. And this is, this is kind of the reality of what I, I am facing. Um, and that, that kind of ties in with Gottman’s concept of perpetual issues, right? So there are, there are those issues that are not going to go away, but you might be able to find some.
[48:42] Some temporary compromise with it so with this one maybe it’s like that half an hour that like okay we can do that but outside of that it might be hard um so so those perpetual issues are those those kind of ongoing the same thing keeps coming up in some kind of way over and over again um those are usually related to um personality differences or lifestyle differences or ideologies value differences maybe religious differences political differences so all these things that are harder to change about a person because it’s just part of like your identity um and and and being able to kind of navigate that as a couple um so so gotman found 69 percent are going to be perpetual issues all problems that we face are going to be yeah if you think of like just kind of the stereotypical in my head couple who’s been together for I don’t know 50 years or something and you know there’s sort of this old married couple they almost relate to those with humor right it’s like ah that’s just herb he’s just you know he just goes in his garage and he disappears for a few days so there’s like this acceptance there like this is just how he is and I’m like this and we always have this thing and that’s just the way it is so So, yeah, that’s actually refreshing.
[50:03] It’s like it helps to kind of navigate to when people are like, how much am I supposed to accept and how much should I try to fix? You know?
[50:13] Yeah. If there’s abuse happening, then that’s a bottom line, right? That’s a safety issue, then that’s a no-no. And there has to be very, very, very clear boundaries around that. If there’s any kind of safety issue, abuse, like certain things like maybe gambling, that might be interfering in the relationship. And it comes back to what we said earlier about financial well-being, right? That impacts on the financial household of the family. So addictions might be a difficult one to work through.
[50:50] I know for the Gottmans, they have a very specific way of working with addictions. So um because a lot of other couples therapy they they just say okay that’s um that’s that that is those who are are working through addictions they wouldn’t qualify to do couples work like the recommendations usually go and do um some individual work or get you know substance use treatment somewhere else and then come back and do couples work so it’s typically um that’s typically the recommendation out there in the couples therapy kind of world but um but the Gottman’s come from a different perspective which I respect and I I um it’s hard but I agree with it’s hard it’s in front of you but I do agree with it um is is you as a couple are going through it together and and the partner might be let’s say the sober one um the sober partner is there to support one who’s going through the addiction so um so that’s a whole other i mean that’s probably a podcast in and of itself but uh but just just to to know that that that.
[52:13] That committed relationship actually helps and supports the person who’s going through addiction to be able to overcome it.
[52:23] You’re leveraging the relationship to be able to build the strength of the person who’s trying to overcome the addiction. So, yeah, it’s complex. And yeah, the nuance, because it’s like without putting the responsibility on the sober partner or this also examining codependent dynamics. But yeah, that it’s like, again, it’s kind of this, we’re not in a isolation. So addiction affects the partnership and the partnership could also… Creates a healthy context around the person dealing with addiction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dynamics play out and all kinds of, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. There’s dynamics all over the place, like with extended family as well.
[53:10] So, yeah. So, how that kind of ties with the accept, like, yes, there’s certain things that there needs to be clear boundaries on for sure. But really thinking about what can you accept, right? What’s reasonable? What can there be some negotiation room there with and being able to accept it so so with this example it was i’m aware that part of me feels lonely when you’re on the phone during dinner i accept that there are times when you need to get back to someone urgently and i’m choosing to support you during those times so so this kind of reminds me of um let’s see if i can quickly find it i love it yeah i love bringing in the resource this is great i know it’s yeah this is yeah so i love this that’s you radical acceptance andrea miller so um so that kind of ties into this full concept of you know i need to accept um not only our partner but like other people around me because we can’t change anyone else we can only change our approach to it um in our our view of it. So being able to come to terms with those things that you can. Like I said, there’s certain boundaries that do need to be clear.
[54:28] And then the last piece. So I for I statements, L for listen,
[54:33] E for empathy. The first A is apology. The second A is accept. And then the D is for decide.
[54:43] So here they can decide together what what now okay we’ve had this conversation super helpful you shared your perspective i shared my perspective we both felt heard we both felt listened to there was an apology amazing there’s acceptance around whatever can be changed awesome so now what right now now what’s the next kind of step um maybe sometimes that’s enough like just having walked through that, that’s, that’s amazing. They feel already like better, right? So, so just having that conversation might’ve been enough. So then jointly they can decide like, yeah, I feel great. This was wonderful. Thanks for like sharing with me. And then, and then you just decide to, you know, extend a gratitude for each other. Like, thanks for being so amazing and in my life. And, and I love that we’re able to talk about these things. So, so extending gratitude might be what you decide on.
[55:39] Sometimes it might be having a more explicit action plan. Like if one person has said, okay, you know what? I promised you to do this. And then the other person says, okay, I promised you to do this. So with the phone example, like, okay, I promise, you know, 30, the first 30 minutes of dinner, my phone will be locked away. I’m not going to even touch it. It’s not going to be on the table. Having the phone on the table is also a distraction, by the way um so having the phone off the table and you know in another room locked away in your in your like pocket like jacket pocket in the closet um not your not your pocket that you can easily access but um but yeah so so one person is saying 30 minutes yes i can i can commit to that i’m agreeing to do that and then the other person saying okay outside of that then you know i’ll i’ll be understanding if you do need to use it for the latter part of dinner. So you have that action plan. Maybe just having it verbally is enough. Maybe it’s helpful to even write it down. So then you can revisit it later on, you know, try it out for a week or two and then come back and be like, okay, what did we decide on? Oh, right. It was this. How did that go? Okay. That’s going really great. Amazing. Let’s keep doing it. Or you know what? We need to tweak this. So let’s, let’s try to reconfigure a little bit more.
[57:01] And so being able to do that, just about the phone thing too. This past weekend, there was a couple there who shared something that I really loved. And that was that they don’t allow any phones or TV in the room at all in their bedroom. So I thought that was such a great rule. Because oftentimes, you know, I hear the couples that I work with, like that causes conflict, like one person’s kind of scrolling in bed and they’re just kind of not paying attention to their partner and then it’s the distraction in in the bed um and so to one another’s sleep you know yeah absolutely disrupting sleep and together time right um and so yeah i thought that was a really great um decision that they had made like a very intentional decision that they had made going into their relationship of no no screens in the bedroom so i think that’s great um so so yeah action plan might be helpful coming up with some kind of compromise um and and having having like like you said that that sense of humor and acceptance around those perpetual things that um that might might not necessarily go away so having some softening there um choosing that connection over distance and um and and being able to have that mind shift of, you’re more important than this issue.
[58:29] And then I also created some Spotify playlists for couples to use.
[58:38] Excuse me, as they kind of navigate different cycles. So if they’re, if they’re caught in a negative cycle, so it’s an EFT term. Um, if they’re caught in a negative cycle, then I made a list for that, like a, a Spotify playlist that they can, they can look at. Maybe they already have a, a song in mind, but, um, but if, if not, then the list can kind of give them some inspiration. And being able to kind of tie in your experience to music I find is really healing and being able to put words or emotion sometimes it’s it’s easier to like feel it viscerally listening to a song that you can identify with as opposed to talking about it per se so it gives a different energy And then I created a positive cycle playlist. So those that offer couples some hope and some like commitment of knowing, yeah, we can work through really difficult things, but we’ll get through it together. Like I’m committed to this relationship. And so, yeah, so sometimes that’s helpful. Cool, actually, that’s, yeah, I saw that point, and I’m like, that’s really, what’s, do you remember, like, an example of a song on the positive or the negative cycle playlist?
[1:00:06] I can pull it up. Here, let me pull it up. I can, like, even show you. Here, let me stop sharing screen. That’s so cool. Yeah. The second time, my podcast I recorded yesterday, we also discussed music.
[1:00:18] Oh, yeah? So, yeah, it’s so powerful for so many things. Like it puts feelings to things that we may struggle to express. Oh, cool. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, when I was going through some difficulties in my marriage, I’m divorced now, but when we are going through some challenges, even like five years before we actually divorced, we were going through some challenges. And um and I remember there was a day that I was driving to work and a song came on the radio and oh my Talia that hit home I just started bawling my eyes out and I went into work and I was like I can’t be here yeah so I I went home like one of my colleagues was like yeah you got to go home I don’t know what’s going on that’s a good boundary that’s a good Right, like, unleashes something. Oh, yeah, these are really cool songs. So You Love Me, Scientist by Coldplay. Yes. Poison One, Hurt, Christina. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah, it, like, gives… I mean, there’s a reason that so many songs are about relationships and love, right? It’s, like, something that really…
[1:01:36] Even as you’re discussing the I lead steps, it’s so hard to stay emotionally regulated. And that’s the importance, I think, in probably so much what you do in couples therapy is just creating a context for them, a safe space for the couple to engage in those conversations and practice that communication and listening. Yes. Because you can feel like your partner is bringing something up, something that they’re not happy with. And even if they’re using I feel language and it’s a soft start, it can still trigger this toxic shame defensiveness, like this threat of like my attachment is being threatened, you know.
[1:02:23] A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s a good point. If at any point in time, let’s say your listeners are trying out this eye lead, right? And that they come to a point where, oh, you know what? Things are getting heated. Like this isn’t what I expected. Then that’s fine. Take a pause, right? Take a minute to be able to calm and soothe and gain some composure and be able to just do that self-soothing. Um Gottman recommends anywhere between 20 minutes and 24 hours to be able to have that little break um then to be able to come back right back after that break um and during that break not ruminating of like all your counter arguments and how terrible your partner is right like no during that break you are actually doing self-soothing activities that you know are tri-tested and true for yourself. So you would have already known, okay, for me, you know, journaling really helps or like yoga really helps or walking in nature for even 10 minutes helps. So, so knowing that.
[1:03:29] Knowing yourself of what helps to calm in those situations um maybe it’s even just like watching funny cat videos for five minutes like it’s being able to get your mind off of it um because in in Gottman’s research it was very clear right like there was um they did they did some studies on on flooding itself what they call flooding so if your heart rate is over 100 beats per minute um and they they had monitors on the couples that they would bring in and study and so if the heart rate was going sky high, then they would come in and say, okay, you know what, we’re having an issue with our equipment. How about you guys go into this other room and just like, don’t say anything to each other, but here, just read these magazines and just, we’ll let you know when the equipment is working again, right? So they kind of did trick them a little bit. And then they still had the heart monitors on. So then when the heart monitors came down to like 85 or so.
[1:04:26] Then they brought them back in oh the equipment’s working better now okay let’s come back in and resume that conversation just you know take two here like resume where you left off exactly where you left off let’s continue so they would they’d resume the conversation and guess what they were like two different people were able to be open receptive the logical brain was back online they’re the the language brain was back online and so they weren’t in that fight fight flight freeze fawn mode anymore so they were able to really have a meaningful conversation so that’s so important yeah just being able to take that little pause yeah that’s so much of yeah.
[1:05:05] Like, I mean, we were talking before we started recording that I, in my internship or my practicum, I saw a few couples, but couples that were engaged in conflict, it was hard. It’s, you know, they’re like you were speaking about the passion for couples therapy and how it’s very particular type of therapy because so much of it is, yeah, you’re like laying ground rules. You’re creating a safe context and you’re really making sure, yeah, you’re almost, because the heart rate monitor is amazing and we’re rarely wearing heart rate monitors. So we have to be responsible in some way for like noticing when we’re becoming dysregulated. But so many of us don’t know that or we don’t have that relationship with ourselves. So you’re kind of watching like, okay, okay, okay. Like, let me pause you, you know, you’re having to, I’m not good at that. But I would leave sessions being like frazzled. And I’m like, oh my God.
[1:06:02] I know. Yeah. I mean, from a therapist perspective, that’s another piece, right? And I have a video on this on, I think I put on Instagram around like, what do you do as a therapist when that’s in front of you? And the first step was check in on yourself, like take a breath for yourself and regulate yourself because there might be countertransference going on for yourself. As a therapist like maybe it’s reminiscent of when your parents would argue with each other and you felt like you had to kind of mediate um you know a lot of therapists we have our own backstories um so like that’s what siding with one person over another you find yourself doing that yeah that triangulation so so we um we we are drawn into this field for for various reasons and so, we have to kind of check in on ourselves so take that breath yourself as a therapist before you kind of do anything before you say anything before you intervene but just just have a little mini check-in um and take that deep breath and then say okay let me pause you here let me pause you let’s take the heart rate right and even just like in the middle of a session if you take the heart rate, I find even just that exercise of pausing.
[1:07:23] Taking the heart rate, and then they’re like, they’re counting and they’re like, they’re waiting and I’m calculating. And, and so there’s a little bit of a break there. Right. And then even just that, like, however long, maybe two minutes that it took to measure the heart rate might have even been enough for them to just take a breath right um and then uh yeah this i i grabbed these because these are pulse oximeters so when i do meet in person then i put these on my couples so each of them has one so it’s just a little thing that they put on their like on their on their finger, And then I have it set up so that if it goes over 100 beats per minute, then it beeps.
[1:08:10] So these are great. But yeah, you’re right. People aren’t going to be walking around with these all day long. That’s really cool, actually. Because I think there’s one individual client I’m thinking of who would bring in this pattern with her partner. Where they would go from like 0 to 100 in like two steps. So even in trying to break down and identify the pattern, it was like, this would happen, then I would say this, then he would say this, then bam, we’re dysregulated. And a lot of that was like active dysregulation, like yelling, screaming, but crying. Like you know but um so many people are just their dysregulation shows and like they overwhelm and the distancing and avoidance and shutdown you know and um but sometimes often before that happens there’s an increase in heart rate and then it’s like you know kind of a shutdown.
[1:09:11] Um response where they’re just not you know so what do you think about that i don’t know i don’t care okay i’m done you know that kind of um so yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah and and like when when the person shuts down like that that’s part of the definition of stonewalling is internally like physiologically they are completely flooded so on the surface they might look like they don’t care or they’re just disengaged and they like oh they don’t they don’t care. The person who sees it, they might think they don’t care about me. They don’t care about the relationship.
[1:09:50] They don’t even want to have this conversation. But internally, they’re just completely overwhelmed and they actually care so much that they are completely dysregulated and flooded. And so they’re just trying to kind of survive that experience and just kind of get through um yeah that’s why they’re shutting down because they they care too they care so much yeah yeah that’s often yeah i always say like when when we feel numb like right when there’s a lot happening and we say i just feel numb i don’t feel anything it’s there’s too much emotion there’s an overwhelm of emotion so experiences i don’t feel anything but in fact there’s a lot going on yeah, Yeah, yeah. So bringing couples in to see that, okay, yes, there’s hope. We might be going through stuff, but there’s hope. And you can see some of the positive cycle songs on here too.
[1:10:46] Just that sense of like, I’m with you. We’ll get through the storm. So through the storm, Yolanda Adams, I’m by your side, Sade. Like, you know, just…
[1:10:56] Togetherness yeah to walk through together i choose you sarah barrett marae chasing cars cool yellow another cold play song i love it it’s good yeah i saw the um the candle lit concert oh yeah oh cool the concert yeah so so it’s instrumental only yes yeah cool yeah i’m getting ads for those they’re yeah yeah cool that’s a nice like calming sensory regulating thing to do too it’s like dim lighting and just instrumental music that you know yeah that you know and enjoy and yeah so good yeah thank you that was really helpful the eye lead, useful tips and, you know, and then this idea about, you know.
[1:11:54] Regulation and self-regulation and co-regulation to be able to have those conversations too.
[1:12:00] And then the awareness of the four horsemen that, okay, when you start to feel these coming online, it’s normal, actually, it will happen. So don’t feel discouraged, but it’s about kind of, okay, pausing and like, it’s okay I don’t you know let me undo that let me kind of you know rewind do the repairs yeah I mean that or okay oh I’m stonewalling okay let’s take a break let’s you know pause and watch cat videos and then we’ll come back yeah that’s all my uh like twitter is this is just like interesting animal videos and funny funny funny animal videos pets yeah I actually had a client tell me that recently she’s like the only thing she’s like i curate my instagram it’s just dogs i don’t want to see anything else i know yeah there’s a lot of stuff out there that that yeah stuff that is it can just um yeah when you’re not really necessarily looking for it that, can be like mini traumas that you’re watching or experiencing. Yeah, just like building in some control over what you’re exposed to and being able to monitor that. It helps. Do you have any… So one of the steps is empathy.
[1:13:27] And I’m wondering if there are… Tips for that like if somebody struggles with empathy or if they feel like their partner and maybe it’s because the partner struggles with their own shame and so their defenses like their defensiveness kicks in but yeah like is there yeah there’s actually the the same gotman app that i mentioned gotman card deck app if you go on there there is a empathy card deck expressing empathy yeah oh cool on the air sorry my my dog um snagged me i’m sorry i have a mandate um so yeah expressing empathy um so just give some ideas you can look through and see what might resonate because sometimes like you know we’re not we’re not trained necessarily generally to do these things right um we as therapists are but i mean the general public are not trained to like what’s validation like you know that that comes up a lot um with my couples is like that’s a part that’s missing in their conversations and then yeah of course they’re gonna feel unheard.
[1:14:44] Of course they’re they’re not gonna feel like their partner gets them because they’re they’re not feeling validated so yeah so things like um you must feel so hopeless so like kind of mirroring the the emotion back i feel such despair in you when you talk about this so being able to tap into what what what’s bringing what emotion is bringing up for you listening to it um you’re in a tough spot here so yeah empathizing with what they’re experiencing and, I can feel the pain you feel. The world needs to stop when you’re in this much pain. So that’s all turning to words, right? And the world needs to stop when you’re in pain.
[1:15:23] I’m in the middle of doing dishes, but I see you upset. My world in this moment can stop. And I can turn towards you when you’re feeling upset. So just that sense of connectedness together in it. Yeah. So powerful yeah yeah it’s a it’s yeah it’s really nice and it it’s like you can create space for that and then because often it’s like a yes but right like you said yeah the agreeing, part you know or um you’re like you know it can be possible to empathize even if you don’t agree right it’s like just making space for the other person’s experience and emotions and then you know and allowing that to be communicated um yeah whether you think the person’s right or you think you would respond that way or you know the whole thing where we can get into our heads and and uh or allowing the other to have their space and their.
[1:16:37] Empathy and their time and then you’ll get your time as well in this conversation you know exactly yeah exactly it’s a good point because the way that the eye lead is built each person does have a turn right and so sometimes when there’s just natural conversation happening you might interrupt because you’re trying to make your point and you’re just kind of thinking about what your point is going to be as a person’s talking but just the idea that you know you’re going to get to turn like once done you know that your turn is going to come um then just patiently waiting and in the meantime focusing on what they’re actually saying right sometimes even writing things down of what they’re saying might help just to kind.
[1:17:22] Of slow down the process and be able to be present and and remember some of the points right because when you’re summarizing back you want to be able to do that accurately so even just jotting down like little keywords as the as the person is talking might help or like if you think of questions that you don’t want to forget that question just write it down and then the like the keywords around their feeling their feeling words so jotting those down because you’re going to use those when you’re doing the empathy validation piece so yeah just having having that opportunity to take notes is really helpful too almost as you’re talking and describing this and like should be taught in school you know because that’s you’re talking about kind of like natural conversation or what people are used to the conversation patterns if we even sit down and talk at all without distractions right um.
[1:18:18] So there’s this structured approach with the steps, but it’s like, you know, learning how to snowboard when you’re teaching somebody, you’re breaking it down into these like micro steps. And then when you get good at it, then you don’t think about that. And you just kind of make art with your snowboarding or whatever the thing is. Yeah so but it can take a lot of time and a lot of practice to you know okay we have to sit down we have to do these steps together and okay that works better than whatever we were doing before or yeah weren’t doing you know and eventually that’ll just become part of how we talk to one another but you know after much repetition um yeah of practicing this skill so yeah I’m just thinking about like going into a high school and teaching people how to have conversations with their friends or partners you know yeah it’s a soft skill that more workplaces are looking for and that some people don’t necessarily have that skill and so it is super important not only in our personal relationships but also our our work the kind of work that we do and and being able to even like lead a team at the workplace, being able to hear your employees’ concerns and validate that, right? They feel heard, they feel respected in the workplace.
[1:19:48] So yeah, it touches on all kinds of areas. And I love that you mentioned about school because that’s like in my heart as well to be able to bring these kind of tools to…
[1:20:06] Two kids in classrooms and and I did it a couple like a couple years ago I I did speak to a classroom um actually at my son’s school and so um we we were able to kind of talk about feelings and like naming feelings and expressing feelings and so we kind of did that more um but yeah it starts early like that was maybe a grade four class I think it was cool so yeah I think it’s it’s wonderful to be able to start early and be able to foster that emotional intelligence yeah yeah like what am I feeling what word goes with that how do I speak that to people and because yeah you were speaking about you know soft starts and harsh starts and I can even you know so partners on their phone will use the example you use they’re on their phone at dinner it’s like can you get off your phone i’m trying to talk to you and already it’s not gonna go anywhere you know and then couples are trying to rewind and figure out where the impasse is and why don’t we connect and why don’t we like each other and and it’s like oh like we you know don’t have any starting point with which we can work with one another you know yeah like rebuilding these skills like rebuilding the relationship house kind of yes yes yeah going back to the relationship.
[1:21:32] One brick at a time yeah exactly yeah and this i mean this this house it took 50 years of research to figure it out right like it’s it’s it’s it was a long road and so to be able to implement these kinds of tools will also be a road like i feel like the next generation they’re more emotionally in tune past generations so I’m hopeful for the future in that respect um yeah I see that too actually like Gen Z is very aware and and very smart in a way that I don’t know if we were you know I’ve hoped I’ve hoped for them I know they get a lot of flack but I don’t believe it I like Gen Z’s they’re all right in my books yeah I think every generation has pros and cons right yeah that’s true yeah yeah yeah it’s interesting yeah like how um I see younger people kind of grapple with relationships and yeah the things that they’ve been exposed to and even these gender dynamics is interesting it’s an interesting conversation I think it’s pretty polarized on social media in the way that so much is polarized in order to drive kind of the negative emotion that catch your attention so there’s a way you know I think that that’s.
[1:22:57] Conversation could be a lot more nuanced, but there’s a lot of frustrations around partnership and gender dynamics and like roles in households and things like that.
[1:23:11] Yeah. Yeah. That Gen Z seems to have more of an awareness of or a transcendence of. But yeah, but that’s a general statement. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. There’s more awareness of equity and fairness.
[1:23:29] And yeah, thanks for raising that because I’m actually in the midst of writing a book. Oh, wow. Yeah. It’s good you’re up to a lot, Melissa. This is good we catch up. We have to do another one sooner. In the works, yeah. But yeah, the one I’m writing, I’ve been wanting to write a book on premarital work for many years. And so finally, I’m like, okay, I just,
[1:23:54] I got to do it. Just have to sit down and do it. So I started it a couple weeks ago, actually. And then, so I have the whole outline done.
[1:24:03] And last night, I started to like, write the prologue and then started to write the first chapter. So it’s early stages. But it’s, yeah, for premarital couples, primarily. But of course, like any couple can benefit from the information. But, yeah, that’s one of the topics. That’s why I thought of it, because that was one of the topics is roles, right? Rules and expectations and invisible labor. And so that’s all. That’s cool. Yeah. I know there’s like the card game fair play to kind of just visualize and lay it out and start having conversations around it. So there’s tools that are helpful. Which is great. Yeah, it’s a tough one. And it’s one where, and I don’t necessarily see this in just heterosexual dynamics either. It seems to be that there’s, This idea of fairness, and maybe it also reflects a difference in temperament, too. If I would rather there be no socks on the floor and my partner doesn’t care, then I’m probably going to be the one picking them up, right?
[1:25:10] Yeah, levels, differing expectations of cleanliness. Interesting. My student, she’s a MSW student from U of T. She’s with me for the summer, and so she’s really interested in blog writing. And I said, yeah, please. My blog, sometimes I’m delinquent with my blog and kind of a couple years will pass and there’s no entry.
[1:25:34] But yeah, she’s interested in blog writing. And I said, yes, please go for it. And so she gave me some topic ideas that she was thinking of. And then Invisible Labor was one of them. And so I said, yeah, go for it. And then so she she has a draft. We just have to finalize the draft.
[1:25:50] And then in that I had mentioned to her about the fair play card game. And she she hadn’t heard of it before. She’s like, oh, that’s fantastic. That’s so practical and fun. Like it makes it kind of fun, right? To kind of think about, okay, what are all the tasks that I do versus what you do? And let’s see how it stacks up. um and so yeah she incorporated that in her blog as well so yeah keep an eye out for that I don’t know oh that’s really cool yeah because it’s also like what goes into every task like if I if my job.
[1:26:22] In our relationship is to write the thank you cards yeah or birthday cards well that means I have to remember them I have to know I have to keep on track it’s not as simple as like you know I have to go buy the cards I have to think of every person’s personality what kind a card they were like there’s all this work around the managing that project um you know yeah so that’s that’s uh yeah cooking is cooking if my job is to cook the three meals every day and your job is to clean the gutters once of how often do you clean them a month that’s not necessarily like tit for tat right and yeah yeah yeah yeah interesting there’s a lot in in partner because there’s sort of this like.
[1:27:13] Team relationship of how do we manage a household or how do we manage a family um how are we partners in that it’s not that necessarily romantic sphere but it’s like how do we practically make it work where we can live and function together exactly yeah yeah yeah, so i think those are good like it’s it’s good conversations and um and that’s the piece right You have to be able to sit down, have these conversations with each other, and work through it, and come up with some agreed upon solution together if possible.
[1:27:55] Um and yeah kind of going back to the seven principles as well like that it walks through the friendship foundation the the conflict management piece so yeah how are we going to solve the solvable problems how are we going to manage the perpetual problems or gridlock issues sometimes it if you’re really butting heads on it becomes a gridlock issue and then the third part um, general general bucket that is is is the comprises the seven principles is the shared meaning, so so being able to get on the same uh aligned with what the expectations are what the roles are what the rituals of connection or like rhythms of our time together being able to connect together will be, and what kind of symbolizes or represents our relationship. And so being able to kind of walk through those areas of, and our goals, what are we setting out to accomplish with our relationship? So that’s all covered at the retreats as well, like all seven principles. So that’s the seventh principle is the shared meaning. And.
[1:29:17] One thing that came out of the retreat from this past weekend was um like wanting a little bit more on the symbols part um and so it it’s actually connected to a workshop that i i’ll have in august i’ll be collaborating with someone um someone who like she does more the art therapy stuff. And so in August, like we’re aiming at the end of August to do, um, like an art therapy for couples. Right. And so I kind of want to, I have to talk to her still about it, but I kind of want to incorporate symbolism.
[1:29:58] So like, you know, what does your relationship mean? Um, like for example, my, my student, she used to be a student last year, but now she’s an associate with me. Um, So she gave an example of in her relationship that they’ve been married over 30 years. Over time, their relationship has meant and continues to mean hospitality. So then it kind of caught me thinking like, okay, because when that person at the retreat said like, okay, this like symbols thing, like we’re, you know, we’re trying to get our mind wrapped around that. And so I was thinking about it more afterwards, last night actually. And um and so i was thinking about like okay like with that example that susan had shared about hospitality like how can how can we make that into a symbol and bring in like incorporate that in potentially the workshop in august right to like do some kind of art exercise for couples symbols um and so so then i was i well chet gpt is great for this kind of stuff and like, brainstorming right so then it came up with a whole bunch of different symbols for hospitality and then one of those symbols i really liked which was breaking bread.
[1:31:20] Basic like you know straightforward kind of symbol and so so then i asked it to um draw a picture of that like a like a couple breaking bread like with people around them kind of thing And so it created this like image, animated kind of image of breaking bread. And so like, oh, that’s so perfect. Like, I think that’s so wonderful. So then, you know, you could take that. And then and then and then in like the art workshop, for example, then like draw, draw you guys breaking bread or like just even drawing a loaf of bread and and just that that symbolizes the hospitality. So yeah so that that piece um cool it’s almost like uh creating like a logo or a what do you call those things like um.
[1:32:09] Cigna you know or like the the coat of arms for your relationship like what’s what’s you know what represents your partnership or your exactly yeah it’s beautiful because a lot of the time we do have images in our head or we yeah or even to think about what image would come to mind if you think about your relationship or what are the images um and how do we make those concrete or bring them to life or like yeah represent them to think of yeah what does our partnerships stand for what symbolizes it or yeah what are our shared shared values purpose direction you know yes past present future like the narrative like it’s a kind of leaving narrative therapy and yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah and yeah so past present future would be and then that kind of ties in with the goals as well what we still want to accomplish you know five years 10 years 20 years in retirement etc so yeah yeah that’s really cool yeah so those are all the kind of topic areas that we that we cover in the retreat and then the next one is um i booked at the same place the queen of apostles and that’ll be may 29th to 31st next year 2026 yes and then And there’s something coming up in August. Do you still have spots open for that for people who are interested? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:33:39] Honestly, we haven’t opened it yet. We haven’t opened the registration yet. So, yes. But if people are interested, just email me and then they can already be on the pre-registration list. Perfect. Yeah. Maybe what people can do is go to, I’ll put a link for your website. And if they go and grab the iLead freebie, then they’ll be on your mailing list and then they’ll get updates about what’s coming next. Exactly. Yeah. That’s the easiest way to do it. Yeah. Just to kind of get on the mailing list. And then they’ll be the first to know about when something’s open for registration. So I had that one in August. That’s the art one. And then this one, May 29th to 31st. And then September, this coming September, we have a money talk one. So an anti-budget couples edition. So I’m excited for that too. So I’m partnering with Angie Ross on that. So she’s a money coach. And I’m just trying to find a date. I think it’s September 25th. Let me just double check.
[1:34:49] That’s cool. Yeah, I love that there’s this, like, acknowledgement and then embracing of this financial piece, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Important, yeah. Oh, yeah, here it is. September 23rd, it’s a Tuesday. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s at a 17th. It’s my niece’s birthday. Aw. Yeah.
[1:35:12] Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. Okay, that’s great. So it’s like, it sounds like it’s practical advice for financials. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, kind of aligning on what, again, what are our goals? And then depending on what the goals are, tying, you know, sometimes there’s money attached to the goal, right? So then being able to backtrack. So if we’re, if our goal, you know, we’re, we’re aligned on our, on our shared value of travel. So we love to travel. So then our goal is next year to go on an Alaskan cruise to see the Bora Borealis. Okay. I’m just like thinking out loud here. That is one of my bucket list items. Yeah, that’s cool. And so if that’s our goal, like let’s say next year to do that Alaskan cruise, then how much is that going to cost? And then backtracking. So if it’s going to cost like, I don’t know, they’re expensive. Let’s say $10,000 for both of us. I don’t know. And so then backtracking. So we have like, hey, let’s say a year and a half to save for it.
[1:36:22] Then how much do we need to save each month? And then creating its own separate account that is a savings account that doesn’t have any kind of bank charges, right? So you can just contribute to the savings account and it’s just money sitting there that you’re contributing to. And so every month saving for that Alaskan cruise. So then eventually you’ll be able to go on that cruise and not go into debt as a result, but actually have the money saved for it. So yeah so anyway little tips like that right that she’ll you know walk through that’s good yeah so it’s helping to kind of create a space to figure out okay how are we going to yeah because again money conversations are another of those sticky like unpleasant sometimes conversations that we don’t it’s like how do we even do this but then okay like if every month we’re putting aside a little bit we’re going to put it in.
[1:37:18] This tax-free mutual fund or whatever and then at the end of the year we have it so um yeah that’s good and then then we can go on our cruise and then it’s not a stress that we’re always kind of grappling with exactly yeah yeah christmas is another one right like um if christmas you know you’re gonna spend like two thousand dollars in total on entertainment food travel um gifts right decorations whatever the whole christmas budget is whatever that all entails if it adds up to like two thousand three thousand dollars then kind of backtracking okay what do we need to save each month to be able to survive christmas and not feel totally stressed out.
[1:38:03] So interesting i’ll say this um there’s a um manifestation uh kind of business uh called um to be magnetic so there’s like an influencer that works on this and she always talks about how relationships and money are intertwined and i think the the symbolism in both of those things is like security and um freedom responsibility like there’s so much tied up in money you know that uh in our relationship to money so it’s an interesting it’s good it’s bold to just bring it into the conversation and you know yeah yeah with the book that i’m writing there’s a there’s a on money too and um and then yeah kind of delving into just that right where did our story of money start where’s that from like what was our parents experience with money what did we witness to that um and what does money mean to us so yeah it’s it’s quite charged right it’s it goes quite quite deep yeah and especially in in marriage like there’s this like combining of finances very often yeah um and so it’s like i inherit your money issues you’re gonna take on mine now we have to sort through that if we’ve never looked at that before here it is it’s like in front of us yes so i don’t know.
[1:39:27] Yeah. Well, that’s so good. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. Thanks so much, Melissa. Any final thoughts or anything you want to wrap up with? We’ll put all your links in the show notes. Great yeah no i think that’s great like i i think that um you know if couples are kind of wondering about how to like maybe they don’t necessarily want to do couples counseling but they’re just curious about wanting to know more tools or have more tools or do something some kind of couple activity together like the workshops we have workshops pretty regularly on different topics. And then, and then the retreat, like, I think that’s a nice way to kind of, you know, if you don’t necessarily want to do the in-depth couples therapy,
[1:40:15] then there’s other options out there. And even for those couples who, like, they’re in a good place, right? They’re, they’re happy, they’re content, they’re in a good place. It’s for them too, right? To be able to maintain that good place, because that takes effort and work too, just to maintain.
[1:40:34] So yeah, I remember I had made that point at the retreat as well of like, you know, if you’re going to go to the gym and work out and you have a certain goal for your body to, you know, build a certain amount of muscle tone or like have a certain percent of body fat, whatever. And then you work really hard and then you attain your goal, you achieved your goal, then if you want to maintain that, even just maintaining that takes work.
[1:41:01] The relationship is the same way. Just to maintain it also takes that work. So maybe it’s not necessarily delving into full-on couples therapy, but maybe it’s doing a workshop or doing a retreat or something like that. Yeah. It’s good because the Gottmans, one thing I appreciate about them is the way they present their information is seems it’s very digestible I wouldn’t say simple but it has that like it’s not very complicated or very you know cognitive but there’s so much research and so for a couple who everything is working and they’re and they’re great and it’s like nice to just know oh this is what you’ve been doing maybe because you have these seven principles down pat it’s kind of like you hit your like muscle building goal like to use your analogy but you didn’t you don’t know what you did right and it’s like well you went to the gym you tracked your macros and it’s like oh right right okay okay so just keep doing that right otherwise it’s like okay I don’t know what what’s working maybe we just really get along but to know okay like you’re actually following these principles turns out um.
[1:42:09] And you’ve accepted the 69% of things that don’t align.
[1:42:14] So good for you because who can naturally just do that by accident, you know? No, that takes effort in and of itself. Yeah. And just like a lot of emotional maturity.
[1:42:26] Yeah. Yeah. And my team is obviously there for those couples who do want to do that deep dive and do that, you know, more traditional couples work. So they see they see couples for all kinds of different reasons whether it’s you know depression anxiety infidelity um communication issues conflict management okay we’re always having the same argument like how are we going to navigate that feeling disconnected like that’s one we see quite a lot is just you know where we’ve had kids like we’re just we’re busy with the kids and we just we don’t even know who each other are anymore um and so that that comes up um quite a bit as well just that sense of disconnection so then being able to bring them back together and reform that that bond again so yeah it was great cool yeah so anyone listening check out the show notes to get in touch with melissa go on a retreat or yeah access some of the resources and yeah this is really good thank you so much that was really helpful and i liked the lesson i think that’s going to be really beneficial for people the eyelid oh good yeah Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. I’m glad. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um.
[1:43:48] Yeah, I, it was, it was, uh, uh, an exercise that I had put together and, and it was like, maybe for a good week or so, maybe 10 days. It just like, it was one of those things that just like consumed me. Like, oh, I could add this and, oh, I can add this. And so, so it started off without another, without a second A and, and without the heart of like, you know, defining the two different areas. And so it’s like over those maybe, maybe 10 days or so, I was like tweaking it, evolving it, you know, using it with my clients. And then they would give me feedback on even just the handout. When I, when I had, you know, the, what I showed you of just the content. Content and then my I remember a couple I was I am working with that said like this is amazing it’s so helpful but can you put it in just one summary cheat sheet page and so then I added that you’ll see if you if you download the the handout there is that at the end like I didn’t show it here but it was after the content part of the instructions then there’s another page that was just just like a cheat sheet yeah and that took um that took because i wanted it to be pretty.
[1:45:03] And like you know and and be able to you know i’m, bring in my logo and like bring in little emojis but then the emojis I wanted them to be my my my logo colors and anyway it was like a whole thing just to like put that cheat sheet together but yeah I hope people appreciate it and and find it useful so that was that was the whole idea um just to be able to provide some framework that um that couples can use like if there’s something just heavy on your heart heavy on your mind like how how can we navigate this so that we set that conversation up for success yeah and then you can just print out the cheat sheet or write down the points and then have it with you put it on the table okay wait we missed a step let’s go back okay empathize please yeah like they could even if they’re on the go like they can just take a picture of the cheat sheet right and then it’s in their photos and then they can just pull it up like if they’re on vacation or you know they’re they’re like at a family member’s house or something and then something comes up and they need to kind of have a conversation and they can pull up the cheat sheet from wherever they are just yeah is it yeah even just the um i statement it can be it can feel clunky and kind of foreign in your mouth if you’re not used to speaking that way so it’s like wait hey i stop using your okay no sorry wait i feel lonely when you’re right yes, But it changes the whole game. It does.
[1:46:29] If it’s an I statement that says, I feel that you always leave the dishes out or whatever, then it’s just a criticism under the disguise of an I statement. That’s not an I statement.
[1:46:47] I feel that whenever the next bit is that. No, no, no. Start again. It needs to be a feeling word. yeah like yeah otherwise you’re just kind of hiding a judgment or a criticism right yeah i feel that you are an idiot exactly yeah i feel frustrated when you do this thing and yeah that i think is idiotic but maybe you keep that part to yourself yeah yeah yeah keeping the harsh statements but stating what you feel about what’s going on that’s fair and what you need thank you so much Melissa yeah it was fun thanks for coming me thanks for coming.
On Thursday, June 20th, the Ontario government passed Bill C-59, exempting psychotherapy sessions from HST.
This is excellent news! This means that from now on, HST does not need to be charged for therapy visits (it was removed from Naturopathic Medicine appointments several years ago).
This makes therapy a little cheaper, as savings are passed onto you.
As many of you know, I have been a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) since the Summer of 2023 and have been accepting new clients since April 2024.
Sessions are covered by extended health benefits and are conducted online for Ontario and Quebec residents.
To learn more about working with me, feel free to book a 20-minute free meet and greet at taliand.janeapp.com
Therapy discussions involve:
burnout and stress
self-care
self-esteem, self-worth, self-talk
work stress and imposter syndrome
relationships
values and narrative therapy
grief
trauma
family systems, parental and intergenerational patterns, relational dynamics
cognitive behavioural tools
somatic and mindfulness tools
mental health care: dealing with depression, anxiety, ADHD symptoms, etc.
And so on.
I am an eclectic therapist who loves cognitive, psychodynamic, and humanistic approaches and therapy styles. I offer tools from various therapeutic modalities that might best suit clients and their needs.
I prefer not to rigidly adhere to one approach–you may choose to talk, prefer body-based tools, or want homework exercises or practical solutions to your problems. In the end, all therapy styles can be effective, but it comes down to the preferences and needs of the individual.
Therapy differs from naturopathic medicine appointments, which are more directive and prescriptive and involve bloodwork, supplements, herbs, and lifestyle recommendations.
In therapy sessions, we focus on building a nonjudgmental and supportive therapeutic relationship as we work on helping you gain self-understanding and insights to help you live by your goals and values.
Therapy and naturopathic medicine can pair well with one another.
Therapy can help remove obstacles to lifestyle changes, like self-talk or associations that can keep us feeling stuck. We can compassionately and non-judgementally explore factors that lower motivation or prevent us from taking the specific actions that we want.
Naturopathic medicine can support therapy by identifying the physical root causes of mental health symptoms and supporting the body through gut health, hormonal balance, and optimizing organs like the liver, blood sugar, stress response, and sleep.
They complement one another very well, and I often work with the same individual in both practices.
What does “Qualifying” after my registered psychotherapist title mean?
Therapists licensed by the College of Registered Psychotherapists of Ontario (CRPO) must put “qualifying” after their names until they have completed all three requirements.
450 hours of client session
100 hours supervision
completion of a Registration Exam
While psychotherapists qualify, they are still licensed, have a licence number, have sessions covered under insurance, and receive regular (weekly) supervision with a licensed supervisor.
Qualifying registrants typically have lower fees than psychotherapists who have completed these requirements.
My last step will be to complete the registration exam in Spring 2025, in which I expect to remove my title’s “qualifying” aspect.
Let me know if you have any questions about the registration and licensing of psychotherapists in Ontario!
“There’s a sunrise and a sunset every day and you can choose to be there or not. “You can put yourself in the way of beauty.” – Cheryl Strayed, Wild Yellow and orange hues stimulate melatonin production, aiding sleep. Melatonin is not just our sleep hormone, it’s an antioxidant and has been studied for its positive mood, hormonal, immune, anti-cancer, and digestive system effects. Our bodies have adjusted to respond to the light from 3 billion sunsets. While we can take melatonin in supplement form, use blue light blocking glasses, or use red hued light filters and, while tech can certainly help us live more healthfully, it’s important to remember that the best bio-hack is simply to remember your heritage and put yourself back in nature’s way. The best tech of all is in the natural rhythms of the planet and encoded in your beautiful DNA. Optimal health is about re-wilding. Optimal health is about remembering who you are and coming back to your true nature. You have the code within in you to live your best, healthiest life. I believe healing is about tapping into that code, supporting our nature, and allowing the light of our optimal health template to shine through.
The proximity to water can improve focus, creativity, health and professional success according to marine biologist and surfer Wallace J. Nichols in his book, Blue Mind. A “blue mind” describes a neurological state of of calm centredness. Being around water heightens involuntary attention, where external stimuli capture our attention, generating a mind that is open, and expansive, and neurochemicals like dopamine and serotonin are released. He says, “This is flow state, where we lose track of time, nothing else seems to matter, and we truly seem alive and at our best”. Contrast a blue mind to a red mind, where neurons release stress chemicals like norepinephrine, cortisol in response to stress, anxiety and fear. From the book Mindfulness and Surfing:
“Surfing is not just about riding a wave, but immersion in nature: the aching silence of a calm sea is punctuated by a cluster of blue lines. The point is to spend a little more time looking and listening than doing.
“Maybe this is not just about being but about what the philosopher Heidegger called “becoming”–a being in time, an unfolding sense of what he further called ‘dwelling’.
“When we dwell, we inhabit.”
Jungian Psychoanalyst, Frances Weller posed the question, “What calls you so fully into the world other than beauty?” In other words, “Without beauty what is it that attracts us into life?” Our human affinity for beauty is perhaps the greatest pull of all into aliveness. And yet so many of us feel purposeless, or that life is meaningless. In our world we are suffering from a “Meaning Crisis”, which perhaps partially explains the epidemic of mental health issues that plague us. We spend so much time bogged down in the business of being alive: bills, chores, work–“dotting Ts and crossing Is” as I like say 😂 This is part of the reason why 1/6th of my 6-week Mental Health Foundations program (Good Mood Foundations) involves getting into nature. For there is nothing more beautiful than the gorgeous imperfection of the natural world. We are called by it. There are myriad scientific studies on the power of “Forest Bathing” for de-stressing, for mental health, for supporting our mood, hormonal health, immune systems, social relationships, and so on. And yet so often when we say words like “beauty” we call on images of “perfection”: symmetrical youthful faces, bodies with zero fat on them, etc.
We are focused on the missing parts instead of how the effect of nature’s imperfect beauty has on us–and thus we rob ourselves of the pleasure of being in the presence of beauty. For what is pleasure but beauty personified? And what is depression other than a lack of deep, embodied soulful pleasure? I find being in nature brings me closer, not so much to beauty as a concept of commercial idealism, but a sense of pleasure. It pulls me into my body.
I feel my feet on the ground, my breath timing my steps, the birdsong and wind in my ears, and I feel calmed, and centred, called into the experience of being fully alive.
If you’re struggling to find meaning, practice showing up to your sunsets for a few evenings in a row.
Put yourself in the way of beauty. When the sunsets show up everyday, will you show up too?
It was a crappy week and I was chatting with a friend online. He said something that triggered me… it just hit some sort of nerve. I backed away from my computer, feeling heavy. I went to the kitchen to pour myself a glass of water and collapsed, elbows on the counter, head in my hands, my body shaking and wracking with deep, guttural sobs.
A few seconds later, I’m not sure how long exactly, I stood up. Tears and snot streaming down my face, I wiped them off with a tissue. I felt lighter, clearer. I was still heavy and sad, but there was a part of me that had opened. I went back to my computer and relayed some of this to my friend, “what you said triggered me, but it’s ok, it just hit a personal nerve. I’m ok now though, I know you didn’t mean any harm”. I typed to him.
Joan Rosenberg, PhD in her book 90 Seconds to a Life You Love, would have said that, in that moment, I had been open to feeling the moment-to-moment experience of my emotions and bodily sensations. I felt the waves of emotions run through my body, and let them flow for a total of up to 90 seconds. And, in so welcoming that experience and allowing it to happen rather than blocking it, fighting it, projecting it (onto my friend or others), I was able to release it and let it go.
For many of us, avoidance is our number one strategy when it comes to our emotions. We don’t like to feel uncomfortable. We don’t like unpleasant sensations, thoughts and feelings and, most of all, we don’t like feeling out of control. Emotions can be painful. In order to avoid these unpleasant experiences, we distract ourselves. We try to numb our bodies and minds to prevent these waves of emotion and bodily sensation from welling up inside of us. We cut ourselves off.
The problem, however is that we can’t just cut off one half of our emotional experience. When we cut off from the negative emotions, we dampen the positive ones as well.
This can result in something that Dr. Rosenberg titles, “soulful depression”, the result of being disconnected from your own personal experience, which includes your thoughts, emotions and body sensations.
Soulful depression is characterized by an internal numbness, or a feeling of emptiness. Over time it can transform into isolation, alienation and hopelessness–perhaps true depression.
Anxiety in many ways is a result of cutting ourselves off from emotional experience as well. It is a coping mechanism: a way that we distract ourselves from the unpleasant emotions we try to disconnect from.
When we worry or feel anxious our experience is often very mental. We might articulate that we are worried about a specific outcome. However, it’s not so much the outcome we are worried about but a fear and desire to avoid the unpleasant emotions that might result from the undesired outcome–the thing we are worrying about. In a sense, anxiety is a way that we distract from the experience of our emotions, and transmute them into more superficial thoughts or worries.
When you are feeling anxious, what are you really feeling?
Dr. Rosenberg writes that there are eight unpleasant feelings:
sadness
shame
helplessness
anger
embarrassment
disappointment
frustration
vulnerability
Often when we are feeling anxious we are actually feeling vulnerable, which is an awareness that we can get hurt (and often requires a willingness to put ourselves out there, despite this very real possibility).
When we are able to stay open to, identify and allow these emotions to come through us, Dr. Rosenberg assures us that we will be able to develop confidence, resilience, and a feeling of emotional strength. We will be more likely to speak to our truth, combat procrastination, and bypass negative self-talk.
She writes, “Your sense of feeling capable in the world is directly tied to your ability to experience and move through the eight difficult feelings”.
Like surfing a big wave, when we ride the waves of the eight difficult emotions we realize that we can handle anything, as the rivers of life are more able to flow through us and we feel more present to our experience: both negative and positive.
One of the important skills involved in “riding the waves” of difficult feelings is to learn to tolerate the body sensations that they produce. For many people, these sensations will feel very intense–especially if you haven’t practice turning towards them, but the important thing to remember is that they will eventually subside, in the majority of cases in under 90 seconds.
Therefore, the key is to stay open to the flow of the energy from these emotions and body sensations, breathe through them and watch them crescendo and dissipate.
This idea reminds me of the poem by Rumi, The Guest House:
This being human is a guest house. Every morning a new arrival.
A joy, a depression, a meanness, some momentary awareness comes as an unexpected visitor.
Welcome and entertain them all! Even if they’re a crowd of sorrows, who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture, still, treat each guest honorably. He may be clearing you out for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice, meet them at the door laughing, and invite them in.
Be grateful for whoever comes, because each has been sent as a guide from beyond.
One of the reasons I was so drawn to Dr. Rosenberg’s book is this idea of the emotional waves lasting no more than 90 seconds. We are so daunted by these waves because they require our surrender. It is very difficult however, if you suffer from anxiety to let go of control. To gives these emotional waves a timeframe can help us stick it out. 90 seconds is the length of a short song! We can tolerate almost anything for 90 seconds. I found this knowledge provided me with a sense of freedom.
The 90 seconds thing comes from Dr. Jill Bolt Taylor who wrote the famous book My Stroke of Insight (watch her amazing Ted Talk by the same name). When an emotion is triggered, she states, chemicals from the brain are released into the bloodstream and surge through the body, causing body sensations.
Much like a wave washing through us, the initial sensation is a rush of the chemicals that flood our tissues, followed by a flush as they leave. The rush can occur as blushing, heat, heaviness, tingling, is over within 90 seconds after which the chemicals have completely been flushed out of the bloodstream.
Dr. Rosenberg created a method she calls the “Rosenberg Reset”, which involves three steps:
Stay aware of your moment-to-moment experience. Fully feel your feelings, thoughts, bodily sensations. Choose to be aware of and not avoid your experience.
Experience and move through the eight difficult feelings when they occur. These are: sadness, shame, helplessness, anger, embarrassment, disappointment, frustration, vulnerability.
Ride one or more 90 second waves of bodily sensations that these emotions produce.
Many therapeutic techniques such as mindfulness, Dialectical Behaviour Therapy, somatic therapy, and so on utilize these principles. When we expand our window of tolerance and remain open to our physical and emotional experience we allow energy to move through us more gracefully. We move through our stuckness.
Oftentimes though, we can get stuck underwater, or hung up on the crest of a wave. Rumination and high levels of cortisol, our stress hormone can prolong the waves of unpleasant emotion. We may be more susceptible to this if we have a narrow window of tolerance due to trauma.
However, many of us can get stuck in the mind, and when we ruminate on an emotionally triggering memory over and over again, perhaps in an effort to solve it or to make sense of it, we continue to activate the chemicals in our body that produce the emotional sensation.
Therefore, it’s the mind that can keep us stuck, not the emotions themselves. Harsh self-criticism can also cause feelings to linger.
I have found that stories and memories, grief, terror and rage can become stuck in our bodies. Books like The Body Keeps the Score speak to this–when we block the waves, or when the waves are too big we can build up walls around them. We compartmentalize them, we shut them away and these little 90 second waves start to build up, creating energetic and emotional blockages.
In Vipassana they were referred to as sankharas, heaps of clinging from mental activity and formations that eventually solidify and get lodged in the physical body, but can be transformed and healed.
Perhaps this is why a lot of trauma work involves large emotional purges. Breathwork, plant medicines such as Ayahuasca, and other energetic healing modalities often encourage a type of purging to clear this “sludge” that tends to accumulate in our bodies.
My friend was commenting on the idea that her daughter, about two years old, rarely gets sick. “She’ll have random vomiting spells,” my friend remarked, “and then, when she’s finished, she recovers and plays again”.
“It reminds me of a mini Ayahuasca ceremony”, I remarked, jokingly, “maybe babies are always in some sort of Ayahuasca ceremony.”
This ability to cry, to purge, to excrete from the body is likely key to emotional healing. I was listening to a guest on the Aubrey Marcus podcast, Blu, describe this: when a story gets stuck in a person it often requires love and a permission to move it, so that it may be purged and released.
Fevers, food poisoning, deep fitful spells of sobbing may all be important for clearing up the backlog of old emotional baggage and sludge so that we can free up our bodies to ride these 90 second emotional waves in our moment-to-moment experience.
Grief is one of these primary sources of sludge in my opinion. Perhaps because we live in a culture that doesn’t quite know how to handle grief–that time-stamps it, limits it, compartmentalizes it, commercializes it, and medicates it–many of us suffer from an accumulation of suppressed grief sankharas that has become lodged in our bodies.
Frances Weller puts it this way,
“Depression isn’t depression, it’s oppression–the accumulated weight of decades of untouched losses that have turned into sediment, an oppressive weight on the soul. Processing loss is how the majority of therapies work, by touching sorrow upon sorry that was never honoured or given it’s rightful attention.”
Like a suppressed bowel movement, feelings can be covered up, distracted from. However, when we start to turn our attention to them we might find ourselves running to the nearest restroom. Perhaps in these moments it’s important to get in touch with someone to work with, a shaman of sorts, or a spiritual doula, someone who can help you process these large surges of energy that your body is asking you to purge.
However, it is possible to set our dial to physiological neutral to, with courage turn towards our experience, our emotions and body sensations. And to know that we can surf them, and even if we wipe out from time to time, we might end up coming out the other side, kicking out, as Rumi says, “laughing”.
The only way out is through.
As Jon Kabat Zinn says, “you can’t stop the waves, but you can learn to surf”.
About a month ago I fractured my right 5th metatarsal (an avulsion fracture, aka “The Dancer’s Fracture” or a “Pseudo-Jones Fracture”).
As soon as I laid eyes on the x-ray and the ER doctor declared, “Ms. Marcheggiani,” (actually, it’s doctor, but ok) “you broke your foot!” things changed.
I have never broken anything before, but if you have you know what it’s like. In a matter of seconds I couldn’t drive. I could barely put weight on it. I was given an Aircast boot to hobble around in, and told to ice and use anti-inflammatories sparingly. My activities: surfing, skateboarding, yoga, even my daily walks, came to a startling halt.
I spent the first few days on the couch, my foot alternating between being elevated in the boot and immersed in an ice bath. I took a tincture with herbs like Solomon’s Seal, mullein, comfrey, and boneset to help heal the bone faster. I was adding about 6 tbs of collagen to oats in the morning. I was taking a bone supplement with microcrystalline hydroxyapatite, pellets of homeopathic symphytum, zinc, and vitamin D.
We call this “treatment stacking”: throwing everything but the kitchen sink at something to give the body as many resources as possible that it may use to heal.
My brother’s wedding came and went. I was the emcee, and the best man. I bedazzled my boot and hobbled around during set-up, photos, presentations, and even tried shaking and shimmying, one-legged on the dance floor. The next few days I sat on the couch with my leg up.
I watched the Olympics and skateboarding videos. I read The Master and the Margarita and Infinite Jest. I got back into painting and created some pen drawings, trying to keep my mind busy.
I slept long hours–an amount that I would have previously assumed to be incapable. The sleep felt necessary and healing. I was taking melatonin to deepen it further.
I closed down social media apps on my phone to deal with the immense FOMO and stop mindlessly scrolling. I journaled instead, turning my focus from the outside world to my inner one.
It was a painful process, and not necessarily physically.
I was confined to my immediate surroundings–not able to walk far or drive. I was at the mercy of friends and family to help me grocery shop. The last year and a half has made many of us grow accustomed to social isolation and a lot of my social routines from years prior had fallen by the wayside.
My world, like the worlds of many, had gotten smaller over the last 18 months. With a broken foot, my world shrunk even further.
The loneliness was excruciating.
It would come in waves.
One moment I would relish the time spent idle and unproductive. The next I would be left stranded by my dopamine receptors, aimless, sobbing, grieving something… anything… from my previous life. And perhaps not just the life I had enjoyed pre-broken foot, but maybe a life before society had “broken”, or even before my heart had.
I thought I would be more mentally productive and buckle down on work projects but it became painfully obvious that my mental health and general productivity are tightly linked to my activity levels. And so I spent a lot of the weeks letting my bone heal in a state of waiting energy.
My best friend left me a voicemail that said, “Yes… you’re in that waiting energy. But, you know, something will come out of it. Don’t be hard on yourself. Try to enjoy things… watch George Carlin…”
During the moments where I feel completely useless and unproductive, waiting for life to begin, I was reminded of this quote by Cheryl Strayed. This quote speaks to me through the blurry, grey haze of boredom and the existential urgency of wasting time.
It says,
“The useless days will add up to something. The shitty waitressing jobs. The hours writing in your journal. The long meandering walks. The hours reading poetry and story collections and novels and dead people’s diaries and wondering about sex and God and whether you should shave under your arms or not. These things are your becoming.”
These things are your becoming.
Something will come out of it.
When I did a 10-Day Vipassana (silent meditation) retreat in the summer of 2018, I learned about pain.
It was Day 3 or 4 and we had been instructed to sit for an entire hour without moving. The pain was excruciating. The resistance was intense. I was at war with myself and then, when the gong went off and there was nothing to push against, I noticed a complete relief of tension. I was fine.
The next time I sat to meditate (another hour after a 10 minute break), I observed the resistance and released it. It’s hard to describe exactly what I did. It was something like, letting the sensations of pain flow through me like leaves on a river, rather than trying to cup my hands around them, or understand or making meaning out of them.
The sensations ebbed and flowed. Some might have been called “unpleasant” but I wasn’t in a space to judge them while I was just a casual observer, watching them flow by. They just were.
And when I have intense feelings of loneliness, boredom or heart-break I try to remember the experience I had with pain and discomfort on my meditation cushion. I try to allow them.
“This too shall pass”.
When I have a craving to jump off my couch and surf, or an intense restlessness in the rest of my body, the parts that aren’t broken, I try to let those sensations move through me.
I notice how my foot feels. How while apparently still, beneath my external flesh my body is busy: it’s in a process. It’s becoming something different than it was before. It’s becoming more than a foot that is unbroken. It’s becoming callused and perhaps stronger.
Maybe my spirit is in such a process as well.
The antidote to boredom and loneliness very often is a process of letting them move through, of observing the sensations and stepped back, out of the river to watch them flow by. A patience. Letting go.
I can’t surf today. But, it is the nature of waves that there will always be more.
Pima Chodron in her book When Things Fall Apart also references physical pain and restless in meditation while speaking of loneliness.
She writes,
“Usually we regard loneliness as the enemy. Heartache is not something we choose to invite in. It’s restless and pregnant and hot with desire to escape and find something or someone to keep us company. When we can rest in the middle, we begin to have a nonthreatening relationship with loneliness, a relaxing and cooling loneliness that completely turns our usual fearful patterns upside down.”
She continues,
“When you wake up in the morning and out of nowhere comes the heartache of alienation and loneliness, could you use that as a golden opportunity? Rather than persecuting yourself or feeling that something terribly wrong is happening, right there in the moment of sadness and longing, could you relax and touch the limitless space of the human heart?
“The next time you get a chance, experiment with this.”
“The problem with depression is, you can’t see the end.”
Depression is like a ditch. Sometimes you head into and get stuck, but you manage to wiggle out. Other times you’re in a major rut and can’t get out at all. In those cases you need to call someone. It happened to me once. I was driving in the winter to a hiking spot and I thought that a flat-looking patch of snow was the side of the road and before you know it I’d driven into a ditch. I couldn’t get out. I tried gunning it, putting rocks under my tires, getting a friend to push. Eventually I just had to call someone. Within a few minutes, a tow truck came. The man driving it unceremoniously and unemotionally told me to put the car in neutral. He hooked a giant chain to my bumper. He yanked me out of the ditch. And then he drove off. Roadside assistance. In my last post I said something akin to “health is not emotional”. It’s sometimes just an equation. With patients I educate them on their prefrontal cortex, on brain inflammation, on Polyvagal Theory and the nervous system and how depression is a normal response of the nervous system to abnormal circumstances, and how to they can work with their body and environment to get the help they need to yank them out of the ditch. But I also talk about the people around us. We need them. We need them to be our prefrontal cortexes (because when you’re depressed or anxious yours isn’t working at full capacity–you CAN’T just yank yourself out a ditch, you need a tow truck, a chain and an unceremonious dude who knows what to do). You need a strategy. You need a hand. You need help.
Just like getting out of a ditch requires outside help, navigating depression and mental health challenges often means reaching out to someone who knows how to guide you through. It’s not a weakness—it’s a recognition that sometimes you need a strategy, a hand, and a steady presence to help you find your footing.
Therapy isn’t about being told what to do—it’s about working with someone who understands the underlying patterns and can help you create a plan to move forward. Depression can make even the simplest tasks feel insurmountable, but having someone to listen, validate your experience, and help you develop tools to regulate your nervous system makes all the difference.
Depression often feels like an insurmountable barrier, making it hard to see beyond the immediate struggles. It’s essential to recognize that this condition is not a personal failing but a natural response of the nervous system to overwhelming circumstances.
By understanding the interplay between brain inflammation, the prefrontal cortex, and the nervous system through frameworks like Polyvagal Theory, patients can gain insights into their experiences and find ways to support their mental health effectively. This knowledge can empower individuals to take proactive steps, but it’s also crucial to remember that overcoming depression frequently requires external support.
With the right support and strategy, individuals can find their way through challenging times and work towards regaining their mental well-being. Who’s your support team? Who are the people around you?
I talk to my patients about bringing their loves ones on board to help them set up systems to regulate their nervous systems, nourish their brains and bodies (don’t even think for a second that I didn’t have a snack to munch on while waiting for the two truck–this fact is not even metaphorical. You NEED a literal snack to fuel your brain), and reduce inflammation.
There is a theory of depression that it is an ADAPTIVE state meant to get us through a difficult time.
Famine. Capture by a predator. Infection or illness. Isolation from the group.
These may have been the historical hunter-gatherer inputs that caused depression but now it seems that depression can be triggered anytime our bodies are in a perceived or real “stuck” state with no way out.
Many, if not most, or all, depressive episodes I’ve worked with follow a period of intense anxiety. Our body’s stress response burns out, we can no longer “get away from danger” and we shutdown and collapse.
We turn inwards. We immobilize. We ruminate (possibly as a way to THINK our way out of danger).
This is why the 2a serotonin receptors that encourage “active coping” or things like BDNF, which is involved in making new brain cells, have important roles in the treatment research for major depression.
I’ll bet you’ve been told you have a disease, though. Something incurable that you’ll deal with your whole life.
But what if, rather than a disease, depression is a STATE you visit, and sometimes get stuck in that follows anxiety, stress and certain triggers?
How might that change the way you see yourself and your mental health? How might that change the way you seek solutions to how you’re feeling?
“The Adaptive Rumination Hypothesis by Andrews and Thomson posits that depression is not a pathology but a set of useful complex thoughts and behaviours that enable troubled people to withdraw temporarily from the world, deliberate intensively about their social problems, and devise solutions.”
From the Psychiatric Times
The major problem with depression that keeps us stuck in the state is when we turn our rumination back on ourselves and engage in self criticism.
