Communication and Building Healthy Relationships with Melissa Johari, MSW, RSW / The Good Mood Podcast
We humans are relational beings. I once heard a beautiful quote that stated,
“Our wounds are formed in relationships, and therefore our wounds are healed by relationships.”
This sentiment highlights the importance of healthy relationships, particularly romantic partnerships, for supporting our overall health and well-being.
In this episode, I reconnect with Melissa, a registered social worker and seasoned couples therapist, whom I first met during our shared practice in Bloorwest Village. We delve into the significance of healthy relationships, the intricacies of communication, and the foundational concepts behind the Gottman Method, which underpins much of her therapeutic approach. After becoming a psychotherapist myself, I was eager to explore these topics further, particularly the psychological stressors that often reverberate in romantic partnerships.
Throughout our conversation, we explore how positive, nurturing relationships can enhance personal well-being, contribute to longevity, and benefit societal structures as a whole. Healthy connections not only enhance individual happiness, but they also serve as models for children, impacting family dynamics and workplace relationships. Melissa highlights the importance of acquiring skills that facilitate better communication, conflict resolution, and relationship building, underscoring that these tools are applicable beyond romantic partnerships.
We discuss Melissa’s recent retreat, dedicated to couples, where she incorporates the Gottman Method’s principles to strengthen relationships. She recounts the tranquil environment of the Queen of Apostles Renewal Centre in Mississauga, which provides a serene backdrop for couples to gather, share meals, and partake in activities that reflect on their relationships. Melissa emphasizes that strong marriages are built on fundamental principles such as love maps, fondness and admiration, and turning towards each other during moments of connection.
In addition, we dive into practical exercises from her retreat, where couples engaged with love maps—the groundwork of knowing each other’s preferences and dreams—as well as techniques for softening harsh communication. Melissa shares insights from her years working in social work and her experience managing a private practice, which has expanded to include associates passionate about couples therapy.
Her work encompasses a variety of approaches, integrating emotionally focused therapy and other methods to address the complexities of partnership dynamics. We touch on the relevance of her new initiatives, like the upcoming art therapy workshop and a financial well-being seminar for couples, highlighting how managing finances can also be a significant touchpoint for relational stress.
As our conversation wraps up, Melissa encourages couples to proactively seek opportunities for growth, whether through workshops, retreats, or simply ongoing communication practices. She stresses that relationships naturally require ongoing maintenance, similar to physical fitness—achieving a strong connection involves effort and investment from both partners.
Listeners who are interested in improving their relationships will find valuable insights in this episode, along with practical resources such as Melissa’s ILEAD communication framework, which serves as a guide for entering challenging conversations with sensitivity and empathy. We also cover the crucial concept of turning towards bids for connection and how small gestures can have a lasting impact on the relational bank account that supports a healthy partnership.
Episode Chapters
Welcome Back, Melissa
Importance of Healthy Relationships
Retreat Reflections
Melissa’s Journey in Social Work
Growing the Practice
The Couples Retreat Experience
Food and Comfort
Integrating Financial Wellness
Gottman’s Key Concepts
The Importance of Communication
Introducing ILEAD
Navigating Conflict and Repair
Understanding Addiction in Relationships
The Role of Acceptance
The Power of Music
Building Emotional Connections
Writing a Book on Premarital Work
Discussing Gender Dynamics
Practical Tools for Couples
Wrapping Up with Key Takeaways
Transcript
[0:01] Hi, Melissa. Welcome back. It’s been a while since I’ve had you on.
[0:09] You were a fellow practitioner at the clinic that we shared back in BC, before COVID times. Exactly. BC or AC. Yeah, or AC, after COVID.
[0:26] Um and uh yeah and i think the last time we talked a lot about your work as a couples therapist and the gotman method and but i think it’s you know since becoming a psychotherapist myself who doesn’t do a lot of couples therapy but sees a lot of um you know psychological stressors or concerns that are related to struggles within partnership i thought it would be cool to have be back on so we could talk about, you know, healthy couples, healthy relationships, communication.
[0:57] Yes, yes. All important things. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s important because it helps us. It helps with our own well-being. If we’re in a positive, healthy, committed, close relationship where we feel understood and we feel seen, that’s powerful, right? That’s good for our own personal well-being and it actually shows in the research that we live longer too. We have less diseases and we live longer.
[1:28] So it’s pretty powerful, right? We’re designed to be in community, to be in togetherness. So it’s important for ourselves, for our well-being, for our kids to see that modeling as well and then it trickles into our workplace into society so yeah it’s it’s important all around yeah totally yeah i mean if that’s not going right in your life like whether you’re single and you’re not happy about it or in a partnership and it’s not doesn’t feel healthy or it’s you know there’s stress around that that’s like it permeates your entire life you know it affects every.
[2:08] Everything in your life, you know? So yeah, I think it’s such a huge part of even how we structure our society, but how we structure our lives. Like we often start with the unit of partnership or, you know, romantic relationship or people that we live with, like the family structure. And so, yeah, and you’re right, getting that right or learning skills that help us in that area can translate into all of our other relationships. And we’re humans, we’re not just isolated beings. We exist in relationship to one another. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even in the retreat that I just had this past weekend, that came up, right? I’m talking about communication. I’m talking about conflict management. And then one of the participants said, oh, so wait a minute, this can also apply to my relationship with my family members. And oh, and also with my co-workers. I said, exactly, exactly. It permeates and the skills that you use to get close and to communicate openly and effectively with your romantic partner absolutely translates to other relationships. Totally. Yeah.
[3:20] Can you tell us about your retreat? We might as well jump right in because you had it just this past weekend.
[3:26] Yes, yes. Well, and also for those who don’t know me necessarily, I’m a registered social worker and I’ve been in social work for over 20 years now, which is… Wow, congrats. Yeah, it feels like a lifetime ago, but it also feels like it was yesterday. So it’s, yeah, it’s funny when I think about that Laurier graduation back then. But yeah, so since then, I worked in child protection and then I started my private practice working with couples specifically in 2012.
[4:02] And then after, so it was an overlap between, there was about a five years overlap. Between doing child protection and then also having my practice. So many long hours, long days. And then I had my son. And so after having him, I didn’t return to the government job after my mat leave. Just focused on the prior practice and really delved into that more. And now I’ve expanded. So now I have two associates and an intern on my team and I’m really grateful, very, very grateful because I’m very choosy in who I bring in on my team. They must have a passion for couples because it’s not for the faint of heart. Working with couples is complex and delicate and needs that neutrality, but also that tact with.
[5:09] Being uh gently confronting when needed so so you want to maintain that balance between both people to maintain that alliance with each of them but then also being able to be honest as well and and and use our uh you know self of the therapist where needed to be able to um uh gently confront and be able to address maybe mistaken beliefs or, yeah, some portion of their context that might be fueling their perspective, but it might not be what their partner intended. Or especially like in Gottman’s terms, if the couple is in negative sentiment override, then they might construe something that might have been quite neutral as a negative, right? Whereas if the couple is in positive sentiment override, then they would give the benefit, they’d be more apt to give the benefit of the doubt and be able to extend grace to their partner.
[6:14] So, so yeah, being able to do that is, is it takes some finesse. Um so so so when I grew my team that was one thing that I really wanted is are you passionate about couples and um are you interested in Gottman method or do you have Gottman training already um and so yeah those on my team have have those check marks uh so I’m really uh proud of my my team they’re wonderful um and then like just in terms of kind of background um so when my son was about two, I went back to school and I did a second master’s.
[6:55] I had actually, I had always thought about going back and doing PhD in psychology, or my undergrad is in psychology. So I had thought about PhD in psychology or PsyD or something like that. So I was looking into that, but then God led me to this program that was the Master of Theological Studies. And so it took five years part-time to do that and I finished that last year so wow yeah yeah so I’m grateful for that that that’s under my belt and done because it’s it was tough um being a single mom and working and going to school part-time so it was it was a juggle a balance but um but I loved it I really got a lot out of the program the the staff at um I did at Tyndale University The staff there are just fantastic, phenomenal. Like, the professors are so helpful and caring, and they really…
[7:55] It’s very clear that they want you to succeed. So there’s that care there. And even, you know, the building is a little bit difficult to navigate because there’s like a wing here and a wing there and some stairwells don’t go to certain floors and it’s like, oh, where am I going? And so, you know, even if you look lost walking down the hallway, like a professor will kind of guide you to, you know, where you need to go, which is really nice. But yeah, so that’s kind of just a little bit about me just for those who aren’t familiar.
[8:32] And yeah, so I started retreats last year.
[8:36] And so I had the first annual couples retreat last year at Queen of Apostles Renewal center in Mississauga. So it’s kind of nice because it’s within the GTA, right? So you don’t have to get on a plane and or travel for several hours like you, you know, a lot of the participants, they were there within half an hour of leaving their home. So it’s kind of convenient that way. But then it also feels like you’re, you’re, you’re retreating, you are getting away from the city because it’s a very quiet it’s a residential kind of area um and the renewal center itself has a lot of grassy area and trees and it’s near ravines so it’s just very um.
[9:24] One with nature and there’s you know seating areas outside and and inside too there’s some like nice little spots for reflection and so it’s just it’s a nice little getaway um for the weekend and and so and the rooms are very simple which i i quite like because and and i’ve got that feedback from my participants as well that they appreciated that as soon as they entered they felt like it was already like a calming side that’s what had said to me this past weekend was that they felt like it was they already felt calm just entering the building right so so it’s nice the rooms are simple there’s no tvs which is good because guess what today these days digital distractions is one of the barriers to communication right we always have a partner and then we’re not turning towards a partner so um so yeah the rooms don’t have any tvs if you wanted to do a digital detox for the weekend you could right like putting the phones away or like not bringing an ipad or whatever you could it’s it’s a it’s an option um and yeah the the the staff there are fantastic the food was great like it’s a lot of you know very comforting foods there’s you know pie.
[10:47] Hot like scrambled eggs and bacon and sausage and like heavier foods than probably I’m used to but um but it was nice nice kind of like comfort foods and you know um I remember there was one meal that had like sweet potato fries that were so good like they made them from scratch and so the outside was crispy but then the inside was nice and soft and they were massive fries, oh my gosh this is so good um so yeah so there and there’s always some kind of protein for every meal and um it’s salad options and oatmeal and yeah so so food was good the the um the group was good it was a good kind of group group energy group vibe um so that’s always important for these kind of things right because how people who attend will gel um but when i did it last year i was super grateful it was it was such a lovely group and um and a whole range right they were there were some pre-marrieds and there were some who were married like um you know kind of middle aged that were married maybe seven years eight years and then um and then there were some that were married longer like over 30 years so that was last year quite the range and then this year um they were all married like two three years and um.
[12:08] But like a range in age, which was kind of cool. So, yeah, it’s neat to kind of see, you know, who is there at any given group and like how everyone kind of gets along. And it’s nice to break bread together for the meals. And we’re just like chatting and laughing and sharing stories. And, yeah, it’s nice. It’s nice. That’s cool. Yeah. And the actual teaching itself. So it goes from Friday, four o’clock to Sunday, three o’clock. And there’s teaching throughout the days that we’re there together. So the basis of it is Gottman’s Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work. So the book, I have it right here. I gave that to my brother and sister-in-law when they got married. Yeah, I had it and I was like, here’s my coffee. Oh, I love that. That’s awesome.
[13:04] Yeah, I had a financial advisor come this year. So last year it was me mainly being a speaker, but then I also had my personal Gottman trainer and supervisor, Mike Fidler. He came and he was there basically as a support, which was really nice. And then he just kind of shared some stories here and there.
[13:29] And then this year, I was the main, you know, the lecturer or facilitator throughout the weekend. But I did bring in a guest speaker Saturday afternoon. So, because I know that for a lot of couples, money is a big issue these days. And so, well, kind of always, but yeah, especially these days.
[13:54] And so I brought a financial advisor in to kind of give some advice and tips on money so, anyways that he I gave him one of these as well so yeah I love that like we did kind of a it wasn’t a retreat but it was sort of a program together I think maybe your first year or it was early on in our time at Blue Rose Wellness and I love the holistic nature like you bring in financial advisors you bring in like all the different elements that surround relationships right it’s not just about the couple, but the context the couple’s in. If there’s financial stress, you know, that can impact the relationship. So it’s cool that you have that. Yeah, I remember that. So you were one of the speakers for, I think it was physical wellness, or no, it was emotional wellness, right? Oh, yeah, emotional wellness. Yeah, emotional wellness. Yeah, because being a naturopathic doctor and then being able to address like anxiety, depression from that lens, like that was really helpful.
[14:48] Yeah, that was based on my wellness, my relational wellness wheel. Yeah. The social and financial and physical and emotional, vocational, environmental, spiritual. Yeah, there’s eight different areas. So yeah, I remember that that it was like a workshop series. And then I had one kind of specialist from each area come in and talk about it. So yeah, that was fun. I like that doing that. That was good and very holistic. That was impressive to me. It’s not just like taking a couple and sending them down. And I mean, there’s that in couples therapy, but then there’s also the bigger environment in which they find themselves. And how do you keep yourself and your partnership healthy by addressing and looking at all these different things? So that’s cool. Yeah. From that systemic lens, right?
[15:38] Yeah. And so you had, so what was the teaching like in the retreat? Like you followed the seven principles of making marriage work? Is that? Yes. Yeah. By Gottman, the Gottmans. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Which is the lean or I guess the lens through what you do most of your couples work, the Gottman method. Yeah. Predominantly. I lean on Gottman. The nice thing about Gottman is that it allows for integration quite readily so I also draw EFT so emotionally focused therapy or internal family systems or um some cognitive not much but like maybe some mindfulness um narrative so yeah it just kind of depends what’s in front of me and what tool I need to pull out of my toolbox but yeah predominantly I do lean on Gottman um and I I got certified so So there’s quite a lot of hoops to jump through to be able to get certified. And so I achieved that last November. Wow. Yeah, it’s exciting. Nice. A lot of things happened last year. It’s like the first training, the master’s, the Gauntman training. Exactly. Last year was kind of the end result of a lot of work, like a lot of years of work. Yeah.
[16:57] And that kind of continued on into this year, because this year I finally got approved as an AMFT supervisor. And that was many years in the works. So yeah, I don’t even know how many years.
[17:12] Probably yeah so it’s marriage family therapist yeah um so yeah so amos yeah american.
[17:23] Association for marriage and family therapy they and that was a lot of hoops too right you have to do do your your hours your uh your client hours your supervision hours your mentoring hours you have to take a course so yes it’s quite a lot involved with that as well so yeah a lot accomplishments and so i’m grateful i’m i’m really grateful and um and i’ll be moving to sarnia so my associates will be kind of staying in gta area um for the for that in person i mean we all do virtual so um so we we can see anyone in ontario all across ontario um and actually one of one of my associates is insured for other countries as well so that’s kind of nice so she’s kind of opened it up a little bit more um but yeah for most of us we’re we’re in true within Ontario unless we have some arrangement with like a particular province which I I did have with Newfoundland but that’s it’s it’s expired now but anyways predominantly Ontario and and then in person limited in person like really just Fridays in Mississauga and then I’m going to be moving to Sarnia in July so so I’ll be I’ll be offering in person there but yeah most of my sessions honestly are virtual like especially since the pandemic I find that people just they’ve kind of gotten used to doing it virtually and so it’s convenient they don’t.
[18:51] Have to worry about you know.
[18:53] Commuting and parking and all that rigmarole and so yeah they just find it really more convenient.
[19:01] Yeah I find that too I mean I’m still virtual and I’m considering going in person but I think, I might just to have some of that in-person connection because we’ve been missing out on that for so long but I think probably it’ll always stay at least 50% virtual yeah because of the convenience and and it works I mean there’s research to support that it’s just as effective.
[19:26] Yeah yeah and so yeah let’s talk about Gottman and some of the teachings because one of the things that always stood out to me with Gottman that I think a lot of people resonate with is this like concept of turning towards.
[19:40] Yes. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. And then this is sort of the context that you create in this retreat where you’re taking away stimulation, like the rooms are simple, the landscape is simple. It’s also not that dramatic because like you said, they’re just traveling maybe 30 minutes. So it’s not like you’re booking a trip and you’re going to Costa Rica and you have this like customs and like you’re just driving to Mississauga. Lovely like yeah right but it’s but it’s like doing like international retreats too but yeah it’s it’s nice to have the option yeah it’s also less expensive probably because you’re not booking a whole trip um and then you’re removing like technology and all this stimulation distraction and and you’re just sitting you know having meals and lessons and things with your partner and then also other couples um yeah yeah yeah so there’s not i mean it’s psychoeducational right so there’s not any expectation to share about your personal stuff openly with everyone at all so um so there are some group exercises but that’s more like okay here’s a scenario um that i’m gonna i’m gonna give to you and what do you think would be an appropriate way to.
[20:58] For there to be a softened startup, for example, right? Like, so there might be a scenario given and then, okay, this is an example of a harsh startup, but what do you think could be ways to soften that and have a softened startup? So we kind of do that as a group exercise and then they do…
[21:17] Private couple exercises so i give them um the the uh the the instructions the exercise to do and then they go and do it like for example the first the first night we did love maps right so that’s one of the um the the friendship foundational uh principles of of strong marriage is is um is the the friendship is the bottom three so the love maps so that how well you know each other is what that means and then turning towards and um and then oh now i’m blanking what’s the other one i’m gonna have it right here uh love maps oh yeah fondness and admiration fondness and admiration turning towards so those three are the bottom the bottom three of the sound relationship house that formed that strong foundation.
[22:11] So, so yeah, for example, they would go off into their, into their couple spots and then, and then share with each other the, the love maps exercise and ask each other questions like, oh, so, you know, what, what’s your favorite tree or, you know, or, or they can make it into a game and kind of guess of okay the question is like what’s your partner’s favorite tree and then you you guess what it is and then if they if they get it wrong then amazing that’s a great opportunity for growth and learning that you you open your your repertoire of knowledge on your partner so then they can gently um correct and like and share with you what their tree what their favorite tree actually is if you don’t know it already um yeah it’s nice because you know so much i think that brings people to couples therapy is like a conflict or maybe they’re at an impasse or they are maybe both like at the end of the relationship and this is like the last ditch effort to salvage it sorry if there’s a lot of construct it’s really loud right now the constructions okay um, But it’s nice to like be considering and I’ll put a link like people can look up the sound relationship house because it’s a really beautiful image that like kind of, you know, what is your relationship built on? What are the walls, the foundation?
[23:33] But it’s also nice to use. Yeah. Okay, that’s perfect. That’s great. Yeah. Trust and commitment. I talk about this actually a lot with my individual clients, you know, because they’re like trying to sort out why a relationship doesn’t work. and then we find, okay, well, you don’t have walls on your house, you know? Yeah, exactly. But I love that it’s like, what’s your favorite tree? It’s not very charged, you know? Like, I don’t even know what my own tree is, but it gives the opportunity to work with that material. It’s like a starting material that’s kind of more benign, you know? It’s like, oh, why don’t I know my partner’s favorite tree?
[24:08] It’s probably because I’ve never asked, and why wouldn’t I have asked? And so it allows you to kind of, yeah, contemplate and think about it without it being like, how come you didn’t know how to, you know, celebrate my birthday properly? Like, it’s not emotionally charged necessarily, you know? Yes, yes. Yeah, it’s foundational. And with my couples, I often give that as a homework item as well. So they can work on that in between sessions. And like you said, it’s not emotionally charged. which is something that’s usually fun. It’s meant to be fun and a nice way to just refresh even the love maps. And John Gottman even says, you know, maybe there have been times where your partner might have shared about it, but then you might forget, like you don’t remember all these details about your partner. So then he says, okay, if you don’t remember.
[25:00] Here, write it down on a piece paper like now now you’ll remember right so it’s not only having the conversation and sharing it but also remembering it like retaining that information um and even at the retreat this past weekend i had told um right suggested to to the couples like to put even um like create a note in your in your phone or or jot it down on a paper like that is an accumulation of things about your partner. So even come, you know, birthday or anniversary or whatever that you’re looking for a gift idea, you can always access that list that might have their favorite color, their favorite restaurant, their favorite restaurant.
[25:47] I don’t know, their favorite author, their clothing sizes too, right? Clothing sizes and- That’s a good one, actually. Yeah, shoe sizes, ring sizes, like all those things, like preference on like they prefer silver jewelry over gold jewelry, for example. So being able to kind of have a little note that is continually growing and evolving and changing because their favorite restaurant now might be very different from what their favorite restaurant was five years ago so um so being able to update it along the way as well uh i know john and julie gotman do that every year they update their love maps and and um there’s an app for that um isn’t there an app for everything there’s an app for for that um called the the gotman card decks app. And so it has a lot of different kinds of card decks on there. And one of them is love maps. So you can even while you’re on the go, maybe you’re doing a road trip.
[26:53] Or waiting in line for something, or you’re at the grocery store, you can just kind of pull out that app and then share with each other some questions. There’s like a really interesting one on there called open ended questions as well. And it’s kind of asking those questions that don’t necessarily come up in conversation naturally like you know what do you think about our house is there anything that you’d want to change with that like what’s your five-year plan what do you want to do when we retire like there’s lots of really rich questions that you can kind of get the ball rolling with that and then you had mentioned about turning towards as well so in terms of that the the concept that Gottman talks about is bids for connection right so So bids for connection can be verbal or nonverbal.
[27:44] So it can be just a very explicit, hey, I’ve had a rough day. Can I have a hug? You know, that’s a very explicit bid for connection. Or it can be very subtle, like just coming in after a hard day and just kind of plopping on the couch and giving a sigh, right? You’re not necessarily verbalizing, I need you right now, but nonverbally you are. And so the partner can can respond to those bids for connection in one of three ways so the first way is to turn towards it so they kind of drop what they’re doing you know if they’re in the middle of doing dishes the dishes can wait like turning towards your partner and leaving the in that moment to just inquire like are you okay what’s wrong tell me what’s what’s going on and And so that’s turning towards, getting curious from a place of care and warmth.
[28:37] And then there’s turning away. So if you’re in the middle of doing dishes, you just like you might hear the sigh or see the sigh or see that they’re upset, but then you just keep doing the dishes. Like you’re just kind of on that task and you just continue on.
[28:52] And then turning against. So that’s where there might be some horsemen coming in the picture, whether it’s criticism or contempt and just kind of being harsh, like being, yeah, critical or hostile towards your partner of like, why you got to be so miserable all the time? Why are you sighing all the time or something like that, right? Like some kind of harsh statement, then that’s turning against. So Gottman calls these kind of sliding door moments. So these little tiny moments in time where you can do one of those three responses, and that will dictate the long-term happiness in the relationship if you’re responding and you’re contributing and you’re building that relational bank account, right? So if you’re turning towards, then you’ve made a deposit in that relationship bank account. So then over time, that builds up.
[29:59] And then eventually, if there is some kind of big stressor that happens, let’s say job loss or an unexpected pregnancy or a parent dying or something that’s a life stressor that it happens. And then you have a robust bank account to be able to survive and weather that storm. Right. So that’s the idea. Whereas if it’s already in deficit, if it’s already in the red and then that storm hits, then you’re kind of sitting in a, like going back to the house analogy, you’re kind of sitting in a straw house. Right. It’s not strong enough to be able to weather that storm. So, yeah. So that’s how turning towards kind of works as well. Yeah, because I can imagine all those little moments of either having a partner turn away or turn against creates resentment, this lack of trust, this lack of feeling like you’re in a partnership with them, you don’t feel like you matter, and frustration because… From the individual side of things, a lot of my clients will express this frustration with their partner. It’s like, how do I get him or her or them to do this or to respond this way?
[31:21] And there isn’t this trust that they’ll receive what they need from their partner. And so thanks for raising that because the needs are so, so important. And I tell my couples, like, you need to ask for 100% of what you need. And you might not get 100%, but it’s important to be able to put it out there. This is what I need. This is what’s really important to me. This is why it’s really important to me. And can we negotiate here? Is there some middle ground? Is there, like, I get you might not be able to do it 100% of the time, but where can we find some understanding, like mutual understanding? here. Um, so yeah, that’s the expressing needs exercise is, is one that I, it’s one of the first interventions that I usually do with my couples is just being able to share, have them share with each other their top three needs and, and be able to do that from, um, a, uh, a place of healthy communication. So I, I walk them through communication tools to be able to do that. Like I developed one called ILEAD. So would it be helpful to kind of walk through? Sure, yeah. That’d be great. Yeah. So it’s called ILEAD. So I-L-E-A-A-D.
[32:47] And then in between the two A’s is the little heart. So the heart indicates a transition between the speaker-listener kind of rule that happens first and then the open dialogue kind of role that happens after. So I’ll kind of walk through. I know some people might be seeing visually as well. So would it be helpful for me to just even share the screen? Sure, yeah. Yeah, that’d be great, actually.
[33:21] Can you see a send request?
[33:24] Oh, yeah. Oh, wow. There we go. Okay. That was easier than I thought. This is a whole nother. Oh, that’s beautiful. That’s great, actually. Technology. It’s good. Yeah, because you can watch this on YouTube or Spotify for everyone who’s just listening. And there’s some visuals. But we’ll also link to your site and…
[33:44] Yeah, yeah, which is great. Yeah, this is on the site. So it’s on like, if you subscribe to the newsletter, then this is like the freebie, right, that I’ll get. So if you if you want a copy, then you can, you can request it that way. And then yeah, at the beginning, I just kind of go over, you know, why is this important? Why is communication important? You know, we want to be able to model that for our kids. because they’re watching always um and yeah this just talks about the speaker listener dynamic so when one person when it’s their turn I always hold this my little pen with the flower this is when I used to officiate weddings I still have it um and so you have like the baton or the microphone um when you’re the speaker and you don’t let go of that until you feel heard and understood then you can pass the baton to the next person and then and then they switch roles so there’s a pretty specific um format to be able to feel understood so so firstly starting off the conversation with that like Gottman says soft and startup so um so the I feel statement so you’re leading with the feeling word. I feel X when Y, I need Z.
[35:04] I incorporated a little bit of internal family systems here of saying part of me because sometimes there is an internal conflict about some of the needs. So in this example, maybe it’s, you know, part of me feels lonely when you’re on the phone during dinner and I need you to engage in conversation with me. If that happened, I would feel loved and cared for. So you’re expressing how you feel, so in this case lonely, with that need not being met. And then you’re saying why, like what happens that makes you feel that way. And then you’re saying what you actually do need. So Gatman always says like, phrase it as a positive need. Because I have couples talk about what they don’t want at length, right? They can be very descriptive about what they don’t want. But then when I try to get them to explain what they do want, it’s a little harder, right? It’s hard for them to even conceptualize, like, what would that look like? So really thinking about what you actually do want, what you want to see happen.
[36:10] So in this case, it’s I need you to engage in conversation with me. And then sharing about how you’d feel if that need were met, right? They’d feel loved and cared for. So that’s how the communication starts out. You’re always leading with that feeling word and you’re saying what you need instead. Um and making that request and then the other person the the listener um can start with asking open-ended questions so this is the l for listen so the i was i statements l for listen um hmm, So you’re going to be coming with, like, wear the hat of empathy, right? You’re going to be coming in with really tapping into that empathetic part of yourself that wants to meet that need, right? That is open-minded and receptive. And so you’re going to come with any kind of curious, deepening questions or clarifying questions. That’s how you’re going to kind of start it off just so you can have a really good understanding of where they’re coming from and then summarize what they said so that’s all part of the l for listen so it’s not like what are you talking about i never go on my phone or i only did it.
[37:30] You’re more like exactly okay so last night how long did you think i was on like you know how long was on my phone or you know you’re getting more clarity as opposed to defending or critic you know you talked about the horseman defense criticism yeah yeah yeah and with this whole communication exercise exactly that’s the point avoid the four horsemen at all costs it’s so damaging right that predicts that puts divorce and separation later down the line so avoid the four horsemen, that’s the criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling, right? So you’re going to come with that readiness, emotional readiness to be able to have this kind of conversation.
[38:16] That’s the first thing to do is both people to be ready for the conversation and agree on when you can have it. Because if one person is wanting to jump into this kind a conversation, but then the other person is hungry or tired or on their way out the door, or they have a deadline that they have to meet for work and they have to get that done, you’re going to set that whole situation up for failure. So set it up for success, choose the right time that makes sense for both of you, and then go in with that open mind. So yeah, the open-ended questions and then summarizing. And then E is for empathize. So we have the I for listen, the L for, or sorry, I for, I statements, L for listen, and then E for empathize. So being able to mirror back what you heard. And this is really hard sometimes for people because they might not agree, right? They might not agree with what their partner is saying. So then they’re like, well, how can I empathize and validate their experience if I don’t agree with what they’re saying. Okay, fair. But you don’t have to agree with them, right? You don’t have to agree with everything that they’re saying. You can…
[39:31] Put that aside that you don’t agree with xyz and tap into what part makes sense for you that they might have shared like is there even just a part of what they said that makes sense to you that you can understand where they’re coming from that you see okay from their point of view this is what they experienced and remember everyone has different contexts right so from their experience maybe they’re coming from a place of trauma or maybe they’re coming from a place where they yeah they experienced abuse whether it’s in the childhood or a previous relationship or maybe even earlier in this relationship like something happened that then triggers this emotional response so so being able to understand that you might not share their perspective and that’s okay. Everyone’s different. That’s all right. But at least to try to see it from their perspective, from their experience, this is how they’re feeling and what they’re looking for.
[40:34] So being able to say something like, okay, yeah, I get it. That must have felt X, Y, Z, right? And then using those feeling words that they might’ve said before, like lonely, Like, okay, yeah, I can understand how if I’m on my phone throughout our whole dinner, days on end, how you can be there kind of stewing and feeling disconnected and lonely. Yeah, I get it. Right? So being able to empathize in that way.
[41:04] And then A, the first A, it’s for apologize. So that might not be always applicable. It depends on the situation. But if it is applicable, if there is an apology, even like I said, for a small portion of what might have happened, then go for it, right? Extend that apology and be able to, you know, eat a piece of humble pie and be able to take that. Um apologizing is also something that gotman found that the masters do really well so um the masters of relationships were those who lasted the distance and they were happy in their relationship so they were really good at repairs right repairs includes apologizing or it can also include just saying okay yeah you know what you have a good point or um, Or calling a timeout of, okay, things are getting a little heated right now. Let’s just take a break and then come back. Or it can be like a touch on the shoulder, just like a hug when you’re kind of, things are getting a little bit too much. And so that just brings in that sense of connection again.
[42:16] So repairs are really good and that includes apologizing. Yeah, you’re not enemies. Like you’re reminding yourself and the other that you’re still connected, you still love them. Even if there’s a disagreement or there’s been a rupture. And I think the research, like, this is true for parenting, too. It’s like, it’s not about not having conflict. It’s about repairing after rupture. And that actually strengthens relationship more than no conflict at all.
[42:43] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it’s parallel with kids, for sure. And if there’s no conflict at all, then I wonder, like, is there communication happening? Like there’s just avoidance happening and neither person wants to really raise anything and then that by itself feels isolating so um so yeah it’s important to be able to share what’s on your mind because that brings more closeness and then be able to have that that repair so yeah for sure because i love like just to go back to what you said about ask for a hundred percent of your needs it’s like by default that will cause conflict because a hundred percent of needs will never be met but the fact that you’re able to recognize them and ask creates this opportunity for connection and you get maybe 99% in a really good world but if you’re not asking for 100%, Then, or if there’s no conflict, then maybe, yeah, it’s probably not asking for 100% of your needs. So how many needs are going unmet, you know?
[43:44] Yeah. And if they’re kind of unspoken needs, and finally keeping those to yourself and then building resentment over time, then that’s not healthy either, right? Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah.
[43:57] I was just going to say, yeah, because a lot of people will be like, oh, I feel so, you know, like I did this and I yelled at my kid or we had this fight. But it’s really the repair that matters. So it kind of lets you off the hook to have to be this perfect parent, quote, right? Yeah, exactly. We’re never going to be a perfect parent. I can say that for sure.
[44:20] We’re so experienced. Yeah, we’re never going to be perfect. And we’re never going to be perfect partners to our partner, our spouse or boyfriend or whatever. Um so yeah it’s we’re definitely not trying to strive for perfection at all because we are all fallen people um but um but being able to do our very best in this life that we have together and and be able to reconnect after there’s been a mishap right like that’s what the the masters do is they they they use the horsemen too right it’s not that they never use the horsemen the horsemen come galloping around with with masters as well but the difference is that it doesn’t happen as frequently and when it does happen they notice it pretty quickly and then they do a repair like fairly fast they they repair that rupture pretty quickly too so um so that’s that’s something that we can definitely take away and and apply in our own.
[45:22] Relationships. And kind of going back to what you had said about, you know, our partner won’t be able to meet all our needs. And that’s normal. That’s natural, of course. But that brings us to the second A, which is accept, right? Accept that our partner is also fallible. And maybe they They would try and they intend to do their very best and trusting that because of the commitment and care that you might have in the relationship, but knowing that they’re not going to be picked all the time, right?
[46:01] And so being able to accept what are they able to do. So in this whole conversation with the digital distraction with the phone idea they when they switch so just to backtrack when after the apology then the the listener can check in with a speaker to ask if they felt heard and understood and then if it’s a yes then they can switch roles here right after the apology they can switch roles and then and then the the new speaker who was the listener before can kind of share their perspective on this situation right because there’s always going to be another perspective and so then they can share their perspective so maybe the one who they’re they’re on the phone right they might say you know what I totally get what you’re saying and I and I want to be more present in the dinners but sometimes I do have like a work a work demand or a deadline to meet. And I, I have to, I have to meet that deadline. Like I have to get it done.
[47:07] And, um, and so they, they, they say, okay, you know, I might, I might be able to, um, have no phone rule, um, for, um, let’s say half an hour right like half an hour of the dinner like okay yes I can like be off my phone for half an hour that’s realistic that’s doable I can do that maybe maybe there will be sometimes where the latter part of the dinner I will have to excuse myself or I will have to kind of make some sense of messages over the phone um so so they they might they might say I can’t do a hundred percent but I can meet you here maybe it’s like 70 percent or 80 percent um that’s how much I’m able to do. So then going to the accept, the one who made the complaint, they might take that in and say, okay, you know what? They’re doing their best. I get where they’re coming from too.
[48:01] And I can extend that grace and know that they will and trust that they will do their very best to stay off the phone and like that half an hour is protected. But if they need to be on it after that, then I, I’m okay with that, right? I’m accepting that I’m embracing that my, my partner just has a really busy job. And this is, this is kind of the reality of what I, I am facing. Um, and that, that kind of ties in with Gottman’s concept of perpetual issues, right? So there are, there are those issues that are not going to go away, but you might be able to find some.
[48:42] Some temporary compromise with it so with this one maybe it’s like that half an hour that like okay we can do that but outside of that it might be hard um so so those perpetual issues are those those kind of ongoing the same thing keeps coming up in some kind of way over and over again um those are usually related to um personality differences or lifestyle differences or ideologies value differences maybe religious differences political differences so all these things that are harder to change about a person because it’s just part of like your identity um and and and being able to kind of navigate that as a couple um so so gotman found 69 percent are going to be perpetual issues all problems that we face are going to be yeah if you think of like just kind of the stereotypical in my head couple who’s been together for I don’t know 50 years or something and you know there’s sort of this old married couple they almost relate to those with humor right it’s like ah that’s just herb he’s just you know he just goes in his garage and he disappears for a few days so there’s like this acceptance there like this is just how he is and I’m like this and we always have this thing and that’s just the way it is so So, yeah, that’s actually refreshing.
[50:03] It’s like it helps to kind of navigate to when people are like, how much am I supposed to accept and how much should I try to fix? You know?
[50:13] Yeah. If there’s abuse happening, then that’s a bottom line, right? That’s a safety issue, then that’s a no-no. And there has to be very, very, very clear boundaries around that. If there’s any kind of safety issue, abuse, like certain things like maybe gambling, that might be interfering in the relationship. And it comes back to what we said earlier about financial well-being, right? That impacts on the financial household of the family. So addictions might be a difficult one to work through.
[50:50] I know for the Gottmans, they have a very specific way of working with addictions. So um because a lot of other couples therapy they they just say okay that’s um that’s that that is those who are are working through addictions they wouldn’t qualify to do couples work like the recommendations usually go and do um some individual work or get you know substance use treatment somewhere else and then come back and do couples work so it’s typically um that’s typically the recommendation out there in the couples therapy kind of world but um but the Gottman’s come from a different perspective which I respect and I I um it’s hard but I agree with it’s hard it’s in front of you but I do agree with it um is is you as a couple are going through it together and and the partner might be let’s say the sober one um the sober partner is there to support one who’s going through the addiction so um so that’s a whole other i mean that’s probably a podcast in and of itself but uh but just just to to know that that that.
[52:13] That committed relationship actually helps and supports the person who’s going through addiction to be able to overcome it.
[52:23] You’re leveraging the relationship to be able to build the strength of the person who’s trying to overcome the addiction. So, yeah, it’s complex. And yeah, the nuance, because it’s like without putting the responsibility on the sober partner or this also examining codependent dynamics. But yeah, that it’s like, again, it’s kind of this, we’re not in a isolation. So addiction affects the partnership and the partnership could also… Creates a healthy context around the person dealing with addiction. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dynamics play out and all kinds of, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. There’s dynamics all over the place, like with extended family as well.
[53:10] So, yeah. So, how that kind of ties with the accept, like, yes, there’s certain things that there needs to be clear boundaries on for sure. But really thinking about what can you accept, right? What’s reasonable? What can there be some negotiation room there with and being able to accept it so so with this example it was i’m aware that part of me feels lonely when you’re on the phone during dinner i accept that there are times when you need to get back to someone urgently and i’m choosing to support you during those times so so this kind of reminds me of um let’s see if i can quickly find it i love it yeah i love bringing in the resource this is great i know it’s yeah this is yeah so i love this that’s you radical acceptance andrea miller so um so that kind of ties into this full concept of you know i need to accept um not only our partner but like other people around me because we can’t change anyone else we can only change our approach to it um in our our view of it. So being able to come to terms with those things that you can. Like I said, there’s certain boundaries that do need to be clear.
[54:28] And then the last piece. So I for I statements, L for listen,
[54:33] E for empathy. The first A is apology. The second A is accept. And then the D is for decide.
[54:43] So here they can decide together what what now okay we’ve had this conversation super helpful you shared your perspective i shared my perspective we both felt heard we both felt listened to there was an apology amazing there’s acceptance around whatever can be changed awesome so now what right now now what’s the next kind of step um maybe sometimes that’s enough like just having walked through that, that’s, that’s amazing. They feel already like better, right? So, so just having that conversation might’ve been enough. So then jointly they can decide like, yeah, I feel great. This was wonderful. Thanks for like sharing with me. And then, and then you just decide to, you know, extend a gratitude for each other. Like, thanks for being so amazing and in my life. And, and I love that we’re able to talk about these things. So, so extending gratitude might be what you decide on.
[55:39] Sometimes it might be having a more explicit action plan. Like if one person has said, okay, you know what? I promised you to do this. And then the other person says, okay, I promised you to do this. So with the phone example, like, okay, I promise, you know, 30, the first 30 minutes of dinner, my phone will be locked away. I’m not going to even touch it. It’s not going to be on the table. Having the phone on the table is also a distraction, by the way um so having the phone off the table and you know in another room locked away in your in your like pocket like jacket pocket in the closet um not your not your pocket that you can easily access but um but yeah so so one person is saying 30 minutes yes i can i can commit to that i’m agreeing to do that and then the other person saying okay outside of that then you know i’ll i’ll be understanding if you do need to use it for the latter part of dinner. So you have that action plan. Maybe just having it verbally is enough. Maybe it’s helpful to even write it down. So then you can revisit it later on, you know, try it out for a week or two and then come back and be like, okay, what did we decide on? Oh, right. It was this. How did that go? Okay. That’s going really great. Amazing. Let’s keep doing it. Or you know what? We need to tweak this. So let’s, let’s try to reconfigure a little bit more.
[57:01] And so being able to do that, just about the phone thing too. This past weekend, there was a couple there who shared something that I really loved. And that was that they don’t allow any phones or TV in the room at all in their bedroom. So I thought that was such a great rule. Because oftentimes, you know, I hear the couples that I work with, like that causes conflict, like one person’s kind of scrolling in bed and they’re just kind of not paying attention to their partner and then it’s the distraction in in the bed um and so to one another’s sleep you know yeah absolutely disrupting sleep and together time right um and so yeah i thought that was a really great um decision that they had made like a very intentional decision that they had made going into their relationship of no no screens in the bedroom so i think that’s great um so so yeah action plan might be helpful coming up with some kind of compromise um and and having having like like you said that that sense of humor and acceptance around those perpetual things that um that might might not necessarily go away so having some softening there um choosing that connection over distance and um and and being able to have that mind shift of, you’re more important than this issue.
[58:29] And then I also created some Spotify playlists for couples to use.
[58:38] Excuse me, as they kind of navigate different cycles. So if they’re, if they’re caught in a negative cycle, so it’s an EFT term. Um, if they’re caught in a negative cycle, then I made a list for that, like a, a Spotify playlist that they can, they can look at. Maybe they already have a, a song in mind, but, um, but if, if not, then the list can kind of give them some inspiration. And being able to kind of tie in your experience to music I find is really healing and being able to put words or emotion sometimes it’s it’s easier to like feel it viscerally listening to a song that you can identify with as opposed to talking about it per se so it gives a different energy And then I created a positive cycle playlist. So those that offer couples some hope and some like commitment of knowing, yeah, we can work through really difficult things, but we’ll get through it together. Like I’m committed to this relationship. And so, yeah, so sometimes that’s helpful. Cool, actually, that’s, yeah, I saw that point, and I’m like, that’s really, what’s, do you remember, like, an example of a song on the positive or the negative cycle playlist?
[1:00:06] I can pull it up. Here, let me pull it up. I can, like, even show you. Here, let me stop sharing screen. That’s so cool. Yeah. The second time, my podcast I recorded yesterday, we also discussed music.
[1:00:18] Oh, yeah? So, yeah, it’s so powerful for so many things. Like it puts feelings to things that we may struggle to express. Oh, cool. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, when I was going through some difficulties in my marriage, I’m divorced now, but when we are going through some challenges, even like five years before we actually divorced, we were going through some challenges. And um and I remember there was a day that I was driving to work and a song came on the radio and oh my Talia that hit home I just started bawling my eyes out and I went into work and I was like I can’t be here yeah so I I went home like one of my colleagues was like yeah you got to go home I don’t know what’s going on that’s a good boundary that’s a good Right, like, unleashes something. Oh, yeah, these are really cool songs. So You Love Me, Scientist by Coldplay. Yes. Poison One, Hurt, Christina. Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah, it, like, gives… I mean, there’s a reason that so many songs are about relationships and love, right? It’s, like, something that really…
[1:01:36] Even as you’re discussing the I lead steps, it’s so hard to stay emotionally regulated. And that’s the importance, I think, in probably so much what you do in couples therapy is just creating a context for them, a safe space for the couple to engage in those conversations and practice that communication and listening. Yes. Because you can feel like your partner is bringing something up, something that they’re not happy with. And even if they’re using I feel language and it’s a soft start, it can still trigger this toxic shame defensiveness, like this threat of like my attachment is being threatened, you know.
[1:02:23] A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And so that’s a good point. If at any point in time, let’s say your listeners are trying out this eye lead, right? And that they come to a point where, oh, you know what? Things are getting heated. Like this isn’t what I expected. Then that’s fine. Take a pause, right? Take a minute to be able to calm and soothe and gain some composure and be able to just do that self-soothing. Um Gottman recommends anywhere between 20 minutes and 24 hours to be able to have that little break um then to be able to come back right back after that break um and during that break not ruminating of like all your counter arguments and how terrible your partner is right like no during that break you are actually doing self-soothing activities that you know are tri-tested and true for yourself. So you would have already known, okay, for me, you know, journaling really helps or like yoga really helps or walking in nature for even 10 minutes helps. So, so knowing that.
[1:03:29] Knowing yourself of what helps to calm in those situations um maybe it’s even just like watching funny cat videos for five minutes like it’s being able to get your mind off of it um because in in Gottman’s research it was very clear right like there was um they did they did some studies on on flooding itself what they call flooding so if your heart rate is over 100 beats per minute um and they they had monitors on the couples that they would bring in and study and so if the heart rate was going sky high, then they would come in and say, okay, you know what, we’re having an issue with our equipment. How about you guys go into this other room and just like, don’t say anything to each other, but here, just read these magazines and just, we’ll let you know when the equipment is working again, right? So they kind of did trick them a little bit. And then they still had the heart monitors on. So then when the heart monitors came down to like 85 or so.
[1:04:26] Then they brought them back in oh the equipment’s working better now okay let’s come back in and resume that conversation just you know take two here like resume where you left off exactly where you left off let’s continue so they would they’d resume the conversation and guess what they were like two different people were able to be open receptive the logical brain was back online they’re the the language brain was back online and so they weren’t in that fight fight flight freeze fawn mode anymore so they were able to really have a meaningful conversation so that’s so important yeah just being able to take that little pause yeah that’s so much of yeah.
[1:05:05] Like, I mean, we were talking before we started recording that I, in my internship or my practicum, I saw a few couples, but couples that were engaged in conflict, it was hard. It’s, you know, they’re like you were speaking about the passion for couples therapy and how it’s very particular type of therapy because so much of it is, yeah, you’re like laying ground rules. You’re creating a safe context and you’re really making sure, yeah, you’re almost, because the heart rate monitor is amazing and we’re rarely wearing heart rate monitors. So we have to be responsible in some way for like noticing when we’re becoming dysregulated. But so many of us don’t know that or we don’t have that relationship with ourselves. So you’re kind of watching like, okay, okay, okay. Like, let me pause you, you know, you’re having to, I’m not good at that. But I would leave sessions being like frazzled. And I’m like, oh my God.
[1:06:02] I know. Yeah. I mean, from a therapist perspective, that’s another piece, right? And I have a video on this on, I think I put on Instagram around like, what do you do as a therapist when that’s in front of you? And the first step was check in on yourself, like take a breath for yourself and regulate yourself because there might be countertransference going on for yourself. As a therapist like maybe it’s reminiscent of when your parents would argue with each other and you felt like you had to kind of mediate um you know a lot of therapists we have our own backstories um so like that’s what siding with one person over another you find yourself doing that yeah that triangulation so so we um we we are drawn into this field for for various reasons and so, we have to kind of check in on ourselves so take that breath yourself as a therapist before you kind of do anything before you say anything before you intervene but just just have a little mini check-in um and take that deep breath and then say okay let me pause you here let me pause you let’s take the heart rate right and even just like in the middle of a session if you take the heart rate, I find even just that exercise of pausing.
[1:07:23] Taking the heart rate, and then they’re like, they’re counting and they’re like, they’re waiting and I’m calculating. And, and so there’s a little bit of a break there. Right. And then even just that, like, however long, maybe two minutes that it took to measure the heart rate might have even been enough for them to just take a breath right um and then uh yeah this i i grabbed these because these are pulse oximeters so when i do meet in person then i put these on my couples so each of them has one so it’s just a little thing that they put on their like on their on their finger, And then I have it set up so that if it goes over 100 beats per minute, then it beeps.
[1:08:10] So these are great. But yeah, you’re right. People aren’t going to be walking around with these all day long. That’s really cool, actually. Because I think there’s one individual client I’m thinking of who would bring in this pattern with her partner. Where they would go from like 0 to 100 in like two steps. So even in trying to break down and identify the pattern, it was like, this would happen, then I would say this, then he would say this, then bam, we’re dysregulated. And a lot of that was like active dysregulation, like yelling, screaming, but crying. Like you know but um so many people are just their dysregulation shows and like they overwhelm and the distancing and avoidance and shutdown you know and um but sometimes often before that happens there’s an increase in heart rate and then it’s like you know kind of a shutdown.
[1:09:11] Um response where they’re just not you know so what do you think about that i don’t know i don’t care okay i’m done you know that kind of um so yeah yeah exactly yeah yeah and and like when when the person shuts down like that that’s part of the definition of stonewalling is internally like physiologically they are completely flooded so on the surface they might look like they don’t care or they’re just disengaged and they like oh they don’t they don’t care. The person who sees it, they might think they don’t care about me. They don’t care about the relationship.
[1:09:50] They don’t even want to have this conversation. But internally, they’re just completely overwhelmed and they actually care so much that they are completely dysregulated and flooded. And so they’re just trying to kind of survive that experience and just kind of get through um yeah that’s why they’re shutting down because they they care too they care so much yeah yeah that’s often yeah i always say like when when we feel numb like right when there’s a lot happening and we say i just feel numb i don’t feel anything it’s there’s too much emotion there’s an overwhelm of emotion so experiences i don’t feel anything but in fact there’s a lot going on yeah, Yeah, yeah. So bringing couples in to see that, okay, yes, there’s hope. We might be going through stuff, but there’s hope. And you can see some of the positive cycle songs on here too.
[1:10:46] Just that sense of like, I’m with you. We’ll get through the storm. So through the storm, Yolanda Adams, I’m by your side, Sade. Like, you know, just…
[1:10:56] Togetherness yeah to walk through together i choose you sarah barrett marae chasing cars cool yellow another cold play song i love it it’s good yeah i saw the um the candle lit concert oh yeah oh cool the concert yeah so so it’s instrumental only yes yeah cool yeah i’m getting ads for those they’re yeah yeah cool that’s a nice like calming sensory regulating thing to do too it’s like dim lighting and just instrumental music that you know yeah that you know and enjoy and yeah so good yeah thank you that was really helpful the eye lead, useful tips and, you know, and then this idea about, you know.
[1:11:54] Regulation and self-regulation and co-regulation to be able to have those conversations too.
[1:12:00] And then the awareness of the four horsemen that, okay, when you start to feel these coming online, it’s normal, actually, it will happen. So don’t feel discouraged, but it’s about kind of, okay, pausing and like, it’s okay I don’t you know let me undo that let me kind of you know rewind do the repairs yeah I mean that or okay oh I’m stonewalling okay let’s take a break let’s you know pause and watch cat videos and then we’ll come back yeah that’s all my uh like twitter is this is just like interesting animal videos and funny funny funny animal videos pets yeah I actually had a client tell me that recently she’s like the only thing she’s like i curate my instagram it’s just dogs i don’t want to see anything else i know yeah there’s a lot of stuff out there that that yeah stuff that is it can just um yeah when you’re not really necessarily looking for it that, can be like mini traumas that you’re watching or experiencing. Yeah, just like building in some control over what you’re exposed to and being able to monitor that. It helps. Do you have any… So one of the steps is empathy.
[1:13:27] And I’m wondering if there are… Tips for that like if somebody struggles with empathy or if they feel like their partner and maybe it’s because the partner struggles with their own shame and so their defenses like their defensiveness kicks in but yeah like is there yeah there’s actually the the same gotman app that i mentioned gotman card deck app if you go on there there is a empathy card deck expressing empathy yeah oh cool on the air sorry my my dog um snagged me i’m sorry i have a mandate um so yeah expressing empathy um so just give some ideas you can look through and see what might resonate because sometimes like you know we’re not we’re not trained necessarily generally to do these things right um we as therapists are but i mean the general public are not trained to like what’s validation like you know that that comes up a lot um with my couples is like that’s a part that’s missing in their conversations and then yeah of course they’re gonna feel unheard.
[1:14:44] Of course they’re they’re not gonna feel like their partner gets them because they’re they’re not feeling validated so yeah so things like um you must feel so hopeless so like kind of mirroring the the emotion back i feel such despair in you when you talk about this so being able to tap into what what what’s bringing what emotion is bringing up for you listening to it um you’re in a tough spot here so yeah empathizing with what they’re experiencing and, I can feel the pain you feel. The world needs to stop when you’re in this much pain. So that’s all turning to words, right? And the world needs to stop when you’re in pain.
[1:15:23] I’m in the middle of doing dishes, but I see you upset. My world in this moment can stop. And I can turn towards you when you’re feeling upset. So just that sense of connectedness together in it. Yeah. So powerful yeah yeah it’s a it’s yeah it’s really nice and it it’s like you can create space for that and then because often it’s like a yes but right like you said yeah the agreeing, part you know or um you’re like you know it can be possible to empathize even if you don’t agree right it’s like just making space for the other person’s experience and emotions and then you know and allowing that to be communicated um yeah whether you think the person’s right or you think you would respond that way or you know the whole thing where we can get into our heads and and uh or allowing the other to have their space and their.
[1:16:37] Empathy and their time and then you’ll get your time as well in this conversation you know exactly yeah exactly it’s a good point because the way that the eye lead is built each person does have a turn right and so sometimes when there’s just natural conversation happening you might interrupt because you’re trying to make your point and you’re just kind of thinking about what your point is going to be as a person’s talking but just the idea that you know you’re going to get to turn like once done you know that your turn is going to come um then just patiently waiting and in the meantime focusing on what they’re actually saying right sometimes even writing things down of what they’re saying might help just to kind.
[1:17:22] Of slow down the process and be able to be present and and remember some of the points right because when you’re summarizing back you want to be able to do that accurately so even just jotting down like little keywords as the as the person is talking might help or like if you think of questions that you don’t want to forget that question just write it down and then the like the keywords around their feeling their feeling words so jotting those down because you’re going to use those when you’re doing the empathy validation piece so yeah just having having that opportunity to take notes is really helpful too almost as you’re talking and describing this and like should be taught in school you know because that’s you’re talking about kind of like natural conversation or what people are used to the conversation patterns if we even sit down and talk at all without distractions right um.
[1:18:18] So there’s this structured approach with the steps, but it’s like, you know, learning how to snowboard when you’re teaching somebody, you’re breaking it down into these like micro steps. And then when you get good at it, then you don’t think about that. And you just kind of make art with your snowboarding or whatever the thing is. Yeah so but it can take a lot of time and a lot of practice to you know okay we have to sit down we have to do these steps together and okay that works better than whatever we were doing before or yeah weren’t doing you know and eventually that’ll just become part of how we talk to one another but you know after much repetition um yeah of practicing this skill so yeah I’m just thinking about like going into a high school and teaching people how to have conversations with their friends or partners you know yeah it’s a soft skill that more workplaces are looking for and that some people don’t necessarily have that skill and so it is super important not only in our personal relationships but also our our work the kind of work that we do and and being able to even like lead a team at the workplace, being able to hear your employees’ concerns and validate that, right? They feel heard, they feel respected in the workplace.
[1:19:48] So yeah, it touches on all kinds of areas. And I love that you mentioned about school because that’s like in my heart as well to be able to bring these kind of tools to…
[1:20:06] Two kids in classrooms and and I did it a couple like a couple years ago I I did speak to a classroom um actually at my son’s school and so um we we were able to kind of talk about feelings and like naming feelings and expressing feelings and so we kind of did that more um but yeah it starts early like that was maybe a grade four class I think it was cool so yeah I think it’s it’s wonderful to be able to start early and be able to foster that emotional intelligence yeah yeah like what am I feeling what word goes with that how do I speak that to people and because yeah you were speaking about you know soft starts and harsh starts and I can even you know so partners on their phone will use the example you use they’re on their phone at dinner it’s like can you get off your phone i’m trying to talk to you and already it’s not gonna go anywhere you know and then couples are trying to rewind and figure out where the impasse is and why don’t we connect and why don’t we like each other and and it’s like oh like we you know don’t have any starting point with which we can work with one another you know yeah like rebuilding these skills like rebuilding the relationship house kind of yes yes yeah going back to the relationship.
[1:21:32] One brick at a time yeah exactly yeah and this i mean this this house it took 50 years of research to figure it out right like it’s it’s it’s it was a long road and so to be able to implement these kinds of tools will also be a road like i feel like the next generation they’re more emotionally in tune past generations so I’m hopeful for the future in that respect um yeah I see that too actually like Gen Z is very aware and and very smart in a way that I don’t know if we were you know I’ve hoped I’ve hoped for them I know they get a lot of flack but I don’t believe it I like Gen Z’s they’re all right in my books yeah I think every generation has pros and cons right yeah that’s true yeah yeah yeah it’s interesting yeah like how um I see younger people kind of grapple with relationships and yeah the things that they’ve been exposed to and even these gender dynamics is interesting it’s an interesting conversation I think it’s pretty polarized on social media in the way that so much is polarized in order to drive kind of the negative emotion that catch your attention so there’s a way you know I think that that’s.
[1:22:57] Conversation could be a lot more nuanced, but there’s a lot of frustrations around partnership and gender dynamics and like roles in households and things like that.
[1:23:11] Yeah. Yeah. That Gen Z seems to have more of an awareness of or a transcendence of. But yeah, but that’s a general statement. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah. There’s more awareness of equity and fairness.
[1:23:29] And yeah, thanks for raising that because I’m actually in the midst of writing a book. Oh, wow. Yeah. It’s good you’re up to a lot, Melissa. This is good we catch up. We have to do another one sooner. In the works, yeah. But yeah, the one I’m writing, I’ve been wanting to write a book on premarital work for many years. And so finally, I’m like, okay, I just,
[1:23:54] I got to do it. Just have to sit down and do it. So I started it a couple weeks ago, actually. And then, so I have the whole outline done.
[1:24:03] And last night, I started to like, write the prologue and then started to write the first chapter. So it’s early stages. But it’s, yeah, for premarital couples, primarily. But of course, like any couple can benefit from the information. But, yeah, that’s one of the topics. That’s why I thought of it, because that was one of the topics is roles, right? Rules and expectations and invisible labor. And so that’s all. That’s cool. Yeah. I know there’s like the card game fair play to kind of just visualize and lay it out and start having conversations around it. So there’s tools that are helpful. Which is great. Yeah, it’s a tough one. And it’s one where, and I don’t necessarily see this in just heterosexual dynamics either. It seems to be that there’s, This idea of fairness, and maybe it also reflects a difference in temperament, too. If I would rather there be no socks on the floor and my partner doesn’t care, then I’m probably going to be the one picking them up, right?
[1:25:10] Yeah, levels, differing expectations of cleanliness. Interesting. My student, she’s a MSW student from U of T. She’s with me for the summer, and so she’s really interested in blog writing. And I said, yeah, please. My blog, sometimes I’m delinquent with my blog and kind of a couple years will pass and there’s no entry.
[1:25:34] But yeah, she’s interested in blog writing. And I said, yes, please go for it. And so she gave me some topic ideas that she was thinking of. And then Invisible Labor was one of them. And so I said, yeah, go for it. And then so she she has a draft. We just have to finalize the draft.
[1:25:50] And then in that I had mentioned to her about the fair play card game. And she she hadn’t heard of it before. She’s like, oh, that’s fantastic. That’s so practical and fun. Like it makes it kind of fun, right? To kind of think about, okay, what are all the tasks that I do versus what you do? And let’s see how it stacks up. um and so yeah she incorporated that in her blog as well so yeah keep an eye out for that I don’t know oh that’s really cool yeah because it’s also like what goes into every task like if I if my job.
[1:26:22] In our relationship is to write the thank you cards yeah or birthday cards well that means I have to remember them I have to know I have to keep on track it’s not as simple as like you know I have to go buy the cards I have to think of every person’s personality what kind a card they were like there’s all this work around the managing that project um you know yeah so that’s that’s uh yeah cooking is cooking if my job is to cook the three meals every day and your job is to clean the gutters once of how often do you clean them a month that’s not necessarily like tit for tat right and yeah yeah yeah yeah interesting there’s a lot in in partner because there’s sort of this like.
[1:27:13] Team relationship of how do we manage a household or how do we manage a family um how are we partners in that it’s not that necessarily romantic sphere but it’s like how do we practically make it work where we can live and function together exactly yeah yeah yeah, so i think those are good like it’s it’s good conversations and um and that’s the piece right You have to be able to sit down, have these conversations with each other, and work through it, and come up with some agreed upon solution together if possible.
[1:27:55] Um and yeah kind of going back to the seven principles as well like that it walks through the friendship foundation the the conflict management piece so yeah how are we going to solve the solvable problems how are we going to manage the perpetual problems or gridlock issues sometimes it if you’re really butting heads on it becomes a gridlock issue and then the third part um, general general bucket that is is is the comprises the seven principles is the shared meaning, so so being able to get on the same uh aligned with what the expectations are what the roles are what the rituals of connection or like rhythms of our time together being able to connect together will be, and what kind of symbolizes or represents our relationship. And so being able to kind of walk through those areas of, and our goals, what are we setting out to accomplish with our relationship? So that’s all covered at the retreats as well, like all seven principles. So that’s the seventh principle is the shared meaning. And.
[1:29:17] One thing that came out of the retreat from this past weekend was um like wanting a little bit more on the symbols part um and so it it’s actually connected to a workshop that i i’ll have in august i’ll be collaborating with someone um someone who like she does more the art therapy stuff. And so in August, like we’re aiming at the end of August to do, um, like an art therapy for couples. Right. And so I kind of want to, I have to talk to her still about it, but I kind of want to incorporate symbolism.
[1:29:58] So like, you know, what does your relationship mean? Um, like for example, my, my student, she used to be a student last year, but now she’s an associate with me. Um, So she gave an example of in her relationship that they’ve been married over 30 years. Over time, their relationship has meant and continues to mean hospitality. So then it kind of caught me thinking like, okay, because when that person at the retreat said like, okay, this like symbols thing, like we’re, you know, we’re trying to get our mind wrapped around that. And so I was thinking about it more afterwards, last night actually. And um and so i was thinking about like okay like with that example that susan had shared about hospitality like how can how can we make that into a symbol and bring in like incorporate that in potentially the workshop in august right to like do some kind of art exercise for couples symbols um and so so then i was i well chet gpt is great for this kind of stuff and like, brainstorming right so then it came up with a whole bunch of different symbols for hospitality and then one of those symbols i really liked which was breaking bread.
[1:31:20] Basic like you know straightforward kind of symbol and so so then i asked it to um draw a picture of that like a like a couple breaking bread like with people around them kind of thing And so it created this like image, animated kind of image of breaking bread. And so like, oh, that’s so perfect. Like, I think that’s so wonderful. So then, you know, you could take that. And then and then and then in like the art workshop, for example, then like draw, draw you guys breaking bread or like just even drawing a loaf of bread and and just that that symbolizes the hospitality. So yeah so that that piece um cool it’s almost like uh creating like a logo or a what do you call those things like um.
[1:32:09] Cigna you know or like the the coat of arms for your relationship like what’s what’s you know what represents your partnership or your exactly yeah it’s beautiful because a lot of the time we do have images in our head or we yeah or even to think about what image would come to mind if you think about your relationship or what are the images um and how do we make those concrete or bring them to life or like yeah represent them to think of yeah what does our partnerships stand for what symbolizes it or yeah what are our shared shared values purpose direction you know yes past present future like the narrative like it’s a kind of leaving narrative therapy and yeah yeah yeah absolutely yeah yeah and yeah so past present future would be and then that kind of ties in with the goals as well what we still want to accomplish you know five years 10 years 20 years in retirement etc so yeah yeah that’s really cool yeah so those are all the kind of topic areas that we that we cover in the retreat and then the next one is um i booked at the same place the queen of apostles and that’ll be may 29th to 31st next year 2026 yes and then And there’s something coming up in August. Do you still have spots open for that for people who are interested? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[1:33:39] Honestly, we haven’t opened it yet. We haven’t opened the registration yet. So, yes. But if people are interested, just email me and then they can already be on the pre-registration list. Perfect. Yeah. Maybe what people can do is go to, I’ll put a link for your website. And if they go and grab the iLead freebie, then they’ll be on your mailing list and then they’ll get updates about what’s coming next. Exactly. Yeah. That’s the easiest way to do it. Yeah. Just to kind of get on the mailing list. And then they’ll be the first to know about when something’s open for registration. So I had that one in August. That’s the art one. And then this one, May 29th to 31st. And then September, this coming September, we have a money talk one. So an anti-budget couples edition. So I’m excited for that too. So I’m partnering with Angie Ross on that. So she’s a money coach. And I’m just trying to find a date. I think it’s September 25th. Let me just double check.
[1:34:49] That’s cool. Yeah, I love that there’s this, like, acknowledgement and then embracing of this financial piece, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Important, yeah. Oh, yeah, here it is. September 23rd, it’s a Tuesday. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that’s at a 17th. It’s my niece’s birthday. Aw. Yeah.
[1:35:12] Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. Okay, that’s great. So it’s like, it sounds like it’s practical advice for financials. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, kind of aligning on what, again, what are our goals? And then depending on what the goals are, tying, you know, sometimes there’s money attached to the goal, right? So then being able to backtrack. So if we’re, if our goal, you know, we’re, we’re aligned on our, on our shared value of travel. So we love to travel. So then our goal is next year to go on an Alaskan cruise to see the Bora Borealis. Okay. I’m just like thinking out loud here. That is one of my bucket list items. Yeah, that’s cool. And so if that’s our goal, like let’s say next year to do that Alaskan cruise, then how much is that going to cost? And then backtracking. So if it’s going to cost like, I don’t know, they’re expensive. Let’s say $10,000 for both of us. I don’t know. And so then backtracking. So we have like, hey, let’s say a year and a half to save for it.
[1:36:22] Then how much do we need to save each month? And then creating its own separate account that is a savings account that doesn’t have any kind of bank charges, right? So you can just contribute to the savings account and it’s just money sitting there that you’re contributing to. And so every month saving for that Alaskan cruise. So then eventually you’ll be able to go on that cruise and not go into debt as a result, but actually have the money saved for it. So yeah so anyway little tips like that right that she’ll you know walk through that’s good yeah so it’s helping to kind of create a space to figure out okay how are we going to yeah because again money conversations are another of those sticky like unpleasant sometimes conversations that we don’t it’s like how do we even do this but then okay like if every month we’re putting aside a little bit we’re going to put it in.
[1:37:18] This tax-free mutual fund or whatever and then at the end of the year we have it so um yeah that’s good and then then we can go on our cruise and then it’s not a stress that we’re always kind of grappling with exactly yeah yeah christmas is another one right like um if christmas you know you’re gonna spend like two thousand dollars in total on entertainment food travel um gifts right decorations whatever the whole christmas budget is whatever that all entails if it adds up to like two thousand three thousand dollars then kind of backtracking okay what do we need to save each month to be able to survive christmas and not feel totally stressed out.
[1:38:03] So interesting i’ll say this um there’s a um manifestation uh kind of business uh called um to be magnetic so there’s like an influencer that works on this and she always talks about how relationships and money are intertwined and i think the the symbolism in both of those things is like security and um freedom responsibility like there’s so much tied up in money you know that uh in our relationship to money so it’s an interesting it’s good it’s bold to just bring it into the conversation and you know yeah yeah with the book that i’m writing there’s a there’s a on money too and um and then yeah kind of delving into just that right where did our story of money start where’s that from like what was our parents experience with money what did we witness to that um and what does money mean to us so yeah it’s it’s quite charged right it’s it goes quite quite deep yeah and especially in in marriage like there’s this like combining of finances very often yeah um and so it’s like i inherit your money issues you’re gonna take on mine now we have to sort through that if we’ve never looked at that before here it is it’s like in front of us yes so i don’t know.
[1:39:27] Yeah. Well, that’s so good. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. Thanks so much, Melissa. Any final thoughts or anything you want to wrap up with? We’ll put all your links in the show notes. Great yeah no i think that’s great like i i think that um you know if couples are kind of wondering about how to like maybe they don’t necessarily want to do couples counseling but they’re just curious about wanting to know more tools or have more tools or do something some kind of couple activity together like the workshops we have workshops pretty regularly on different topics. And then, and then the retreat, like, I think that’s a nice way to kind of, you know, if you don’t necessarily want to do the in-depth couples therapy,
[1:40:15] then there’s other options out there. And even for those couples who, like, they’re in a good place, right? They’re, they’re happy, they’re content, they’re in a good place. It’s for them too, right? To be able to maintain that good place, because that takes effort and work too, just to maintain.
[1:40:34] So yeah, I remember I had made that point at the retreat as well of like, you know, if you’re going to go to the gym and work out and you have a certain goal for your body to, you know, build a certain amount of muscle tone or like have a certain percent of body fat, whatever. And then you work really hard and then you attain your goal, you achieved your goal, then if you want to maintain that, even just maintaining that takes work.
[1:41:01] The relationship is the same way. Just to maintain it also takes that work. So maybe it’s not necessarily delving into full-on couples therapy, but maybe it’s doing a workshop or doing a retreat or something like that. Yeah. It’s good because the Gottmans, one thing I appreciate about them is the way they present their information is seems it’s very digestible I wouldn’t say simple but it has that like it’s not very complicated or very you know cognitive but there’s so much research and so for a couple who everything is working and they’re and they’re great and it’s like nice to just know oh this is what you’ve been doing maybe because you have these seven principles down pat it’s kind of like you hit your like muscle building goal like to use your analogy but you didn’t you don’t know what you did right and it’s like well you went to the gym you tracked your macros and it’s like oh right right okay okay so just keep doing that right otherwise it’s like okay I don’t know what what’s working maybe we just really get along but to know okay like you’re actually following these principles turns out um.
[1:42:09] And you’ve accepted the 69% of things that don’t align.
[1:42:14] So good for you because who can naturally just do that by accident, you know? No, that takes effort in and of itself. Yeah. And just like a lot of emotional maturity.
[1:42:26] Yeah. Yeah. And my team is obviously there for those couples who do want to do that deep dive and do that, you know, more traditional couples work. So they see they see couples for all kinds of different reasons whether it’s you know depression anxiety infidelity um communication issues conflict management okay we’re always having the same argument like how are we going to navigate that feeling disconnected like that’s one we see quite a lot is just you know where we’ve had kids like we’re just we’re busy with the kids and we just we don’t even know who each other are anymore um and so that that comes up um quite a bit as well just that sense of disconnection so then being able to bring them back together and reform that that bond again so yeah it was great cool yeah so anyone listening check out the show notes to get in touch with melissa go on a retreat or yeah access some of the resources and yeah this is really good thank you so much that was really helpful and i liked the lesson i think that’s going to be really beneficial for people the eyelid oh good yeah Yeah, that’s great. Yeah. I’m glad. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, um.
[1:43:48] Yeah, I, it was, it was, uh, uh, an exercise that I had put together and, and it was like, maybe for a good week or so, maybe 10 days. It just like, it was one of those things that just like consumed me. Like, oh, I could add this and, oh, I can add this. And so, so it started off without another, without a second A and, and without the heart of like, you know, defining the two different areas. And so it’s like over those maybe, maybe 10 days or so, I was like tweaking it, evolving it, you know, using it with my clients. And then they would give me feedback on even just the handout. When I, when I had, you know, the, what I showed you of just the content. Content and then my I remember a couple I was I am working with that said like this is amazing it’s so helpful but can you put it in just one summary cheat sheet page and so then I added that you’ll see if you if you download the the handout there is that at the end like I didn’t show it here but it was after the content part of the instructions then there’s another page that was just just like a cheat sheet yeah and that took um that took because i wanted it to be pretty.
[1:45:03] And like you know and and be able to you know i’m, bring in my logo and like bring in little emojis but then the emojis I wanted them to be my my my logo colors and anyway it was like a whole thing just to like put that cheat sheet together but yeah I hope people appreciate it and and find it useful so that was that was the whole idea um just to be able to provide some framework that um that couples can use like if there’s something just heavy on your heart heavy on your mind like how how can we navigate this so that we set that conversation up for success yeah and then you can just print out the cheat sheet or write down the points and then have it with you put it on the table okay wait we missed a step let’s go back okay empathize please yeah like they could even if they’re on the go like they can just take a picture of the cheat sheet right and then it’s in their photos and then they can just pull it up like if they’re on vacation or you know they’re they’re like at a family member’s house or something and then something comes up and they need to kind of have a conversation and they can pull up the cheat sheet from wherever they are just yeah is it yeah even just the um i statement it can be it can feel clunky and kind of foreign in your mouth if you’re not used to speaking that way so it’s like wait hey i stop using your okay no sorry wait i feel lonely when you’re right yes, But it changes the whole game. It does.
[1:46:29] If it’s an I statement that says, I feel that you always leave the dishes out or whatever, then it’s just a criticism under the disguise of an I statement. That’s not an I statement.
[1:46:47] I feel that whenever the next bit is that. No, no, no. Start again. It needs to be a feeling word. yeah like yeah otherwise you’re just kind of hiding a judgment or a criticism right yeah i feel that you are an idiot exactly yeah i feel frustrated when you do this thing and yeah that i think is idiotic but maybe you keep that part to yourself yeah yeah yeah keeping the harsh statements but stating what you feel about what’s going on that’s fair and what you need thank you so much Melissa yeah it was fun thanks for coming me thanks for coming.
